335 gr Cast Performance WFNGC is hitting 4-1/2" high @ 25 yds in my 4-5/8" SS Ruger BH. Short of changing bullets, what are my options to lower bullet impact?

GSSP


on the load-
What is muzzle velocity?
What powder/primer/load/oal are you at?
If you're flexible on the velocity you can work on that and see how POI goes.
If you're happy with the velocity, you can work with powders and primers, different combinations might print higher or lower at the same velocity (consider burn rates, ignition, interior ballistics, load density/weight of ejecta).

on the gun-
You can install a taller front sight blade.
You can adjust the rear sight height too.
You can have the barrel bent (special gunsmith press work there)
You can have custom grips made for your hand to compensate.


--Tinker

If you can increase the load to increase velocity, the impact point should become lower.

I assume that you have the back sight lowered as much as possible or that it is fixed sight.
So of all the possible answers printed above I would start with the grip.
Are you used to shooting these kinds of loads? they require a FIRM grip or else the pistol will rotate too much in your hand and cause you to shoot high.
A shooting glove can work wonders, or wrap the grip with tennis racket grip tape to see if a different grip would help much.
I would probably still shoot with a good shooting glove if your loads are hot.
It is rather difficult to be as consistent with your grip as you are probably going to need to be with jsut bare skin on rocking loads.

It is a fact of life. Heavy boolits shoot high because it raises the barrel more before boolit exit. Short barrels are worse, light guns are worse. When you run out of sight they need to be changed to raise the front. Trying to hold the gun down won't work but adding a few pounds of lead to the barrel will.
Making the heavy boolit faster only helps a little and could drop accuracy and will raise pressure. If you want to shoot the big boys you need to find a way to make the front sight higher, tough since most are not made to replace. I have soldered metal to them and even epoxy has held a piece of metal to them.
I told one guy to tie aircraft bungee to the barrel and stand on the other end!

Couple things-

Custom grips are more expensive than a new front sight, and some variations of the Ruger BlackHawk have very easily replaced front sights.

GSSP, since we're not exactly sure which variant of BlackHawk you have, I'll use this stock photo of one that's very close to what you described, which has a pinned front sight as an example...

See the little dark dot on the front sight ramp?
That's a pin. It's removable, (takes a tiny pin punch of just the right size) and when it's out, the front sight comes off.

So given that, you have something to look at on your particular revolver.
Whether or not yours is pinned and replaceable, here's an exercise you can do to find out how much more front sight height you need if that's the route you'll be taking.

Go to the range with your revolver, the ammunition you want to regulate the sights to, and some black masking or electrical tape, and a pair of calipers that you can measure things with accurately.
Start by measuring the distance between the top of your front sight and the bottom of your barrel up there by the muzzle (directly opposite the top of the front sight)

Add four or five thicknesses of tape to the top of the front sight, don't make a mess of things either -- use a razor blade or scissors to keep your sight picture usable.

Fire three rounds.
See how far down you moved your group.
Repeat until you have the Point Of Impact (POI)
where your Point Of Aim (POA) is.

When you are where you want to be, measure between the 'new top of your front sight' including the stack of tape you've added.
Subtract the initial measurement from this measurement, and the result is "how much more front sight height you need"
(or how much you need to lower your rear sight - note that the rear sight blade can be filed or replaced too)

If you'd given us some more information, we could have actually done a good bit of this work with math.
Click this link to get you to the Brownell's website page where they have a very nice Sight Height Calculator.
You can do this with longhand math too, but their online tool makes things easy.

I note this little process first, because it's the cheapest route to success.
Also, it is much less demanding on your ergonomic process than changing your hold on the gun -- and the results are more consistent than going with a shooting glove or 'holding it tighter' for the reason that if you use a glove or some arbitrarily increased pressure on the gripstocks, it's likely that in the field you won't have either when it's time to hit something with your handgun.
You're getting the high target print with this revolver holding it the way you hold it. You'll be holding it like that in the future too, no doubt.

Custom gripstocks are expensive, and take a fair bit of work with the grip maker to get just the effect you want.
I just listed that option because it is an option.
Since you didn't mention the grips, I'll assume you're comfortable with them. If you're not, maybe this is the time to look at different grips -- they can definitely affect POI
If that's the case, don't bother with sight adjustments until you replace your stocks - then when comfortable with how it feels in your hand, it's back to the range to compare POI/POA

Bending the barrel is typically reserved for a revolver with a fixed front sight and a fixed or no rear sight. It's done more often than you might think, it's the way to make big windage adjustments on such a revolver.

Start with the Brownells Sight Height Calculator.
Check your work at the range with tape and a caliper.
When that's all said and done, either order a tall front sight blade replacement or if your front sight is not replaceable, add to it with black epoxy as noted above or have a properly qualified gunsmith add metal to your front sight, trim to the 'right height' and refinish it back to black.


Sights are the most cost effective way to go.
There may be other issues such as fit or the fitness of the revolver to address.
You have a quite a few different options to pursue here, and we haven't even addressed to a great extent load development, but note that there are possibilities there too.


--Tinker

Ruger BH rear sight blades are inexpensive and easy to change. Call Rugers parts dept. and order a couple. Then get a 6" fine cut file and go to work lowering the hight of one of these blades. Install the new cut down blade and see how it works. If you're not handy with a file, take it to your friendly neighborhood gunsmith.

actually ive found just the oposite. Short barreled guns will usually be effected less. My short barreled guns seem to react less to velocity when it comes to poa then the same caliber guns with longer barrels. My 4 inch 500 will shoot bullets between 400 and 480 almost to the indentical poa at 25 yards at the same velocity. Ive allways attributed it to the fact that a bullet is in the barrel a shorter ammount of time and that doesnt let the muzzle flip effect the bullet as much as a longer barreled gun.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
It is a fact of life. Heavy boolits shoot high because it raises the barrel more before boolit exit. Short barrels are worse, light guns are worse. When you run out of sight they need to be changed to raise the front. Trying to hold the gun down won't work but adding a few pounds of lead to the barrel will.
Making the heavy boolit faster only helps a little and could drop accuracy and will raise pressure. If you want to shoot the big boys you need to find a way to make the front sight higher, tough since most are not made to replace. I have soldered metal to them and even epoxy has held a piece of metal to them.
I told one guy to tie aircraft bungee to the barrel and stand on the other end!

Here is my load, not that I plan on changing it. I was shooting bare handed as I forgot my shooting gloves that day.

45 LC
335 gr Cast Performance WFNGC
Starline brass
WLP primer
20 gr Lil'Gun
1100 fps

Grips I have on it are the Ajax pearlite. I also have the Ruger ivory grips though I'm not sure that will make a difference.

Mine does have the roll pin, thus facilitating the removal of the front sight.

The rear sight is tightened down as far as it will go.

My intention with it will be backup to my 9.3x62 while hunting Grizzly in Alaska this September. If a while glassing, a bear suddenly presents itself at close range, less than 50 yds, I'll try and take the bear with the 45. Either way, I doubt I'll have to time to slip on my shooting gloves so bare hand or leather gloved had will be the likely scenario.

I think I'll take take the new front sight option. From the top of the front sight to the bottom of the barrel is 1.238".

you dont want to go hotter that load is plenty stout! dave clements sells a real nice post front blade for under 5o bucks that will pin right into your gun. It will have the added bonus of giving you a much better sight picture to boot. It will come to tall and will require you to file it down to the proper height. I probably have a dozen of them on differnt guns and there my favorite front sight.

I'd like to try and run with the .595" high Ruger front sight. Per Brownells sight, the .495" is standard. Using a caliper, it looks like the roll pin is less than .01". What size punch should I buy to push out the pin?

GSSP-

For 45lc a 325 at 1100fps is a hot load.
Inside 50 yards on grizzly bear I'd still be reaching for my rifle.
I present my rifle sights from african carry very nearly as quickly as I get a pistol's sights on from belt holster carry.
I am definitely quicker on with a rifle from african carry than a pistol from a shoulder rig.

I'll say this.
This load on grizzly sounds like a primer for some very exciting hunting.

I definitely think that the front sight is the most cost effective way to go.
Here's an image of the Clements sight noted in the above message


I recommend you get your rear sight to somewhere in the middle of it's range before you commit to a new front sight height.
It's good to have room for adjustment both ways once the work's done.
Get it reset to the middle of it's range, touch three rounds off into a target, do the math with the brownell's calculator, and from there you'll know *exactly* what height to get the new sight trimmed to, regardless of whether it's a clements sight or any other solution you choose for a replacement front sight.

Then it's simple. Replace/trim the front sight, put three more into the target, and then fine tune with your rear sight's elevation adjustment.

Fiddle with that brownells calculator.
Notice how much a difference in POI can come from even a very little sight height adjustment across the relatively short sight radius of your Ruger.

Plug your load into an exterior ballistics calculator and get a sense of how much drop you'll see over fifty yards with this load too.
Do you want POA to equal POI at 25 yards?

With your load, over fifty yards you're losing about 65fps and 4" of drop.

Might you want this load to print saaay maybe 2" high at 25 yards? That would get you 2" below POI at 50 yards and somewhere in between anywhere from muzzle to the fifty yard line...

Also, on that roll pin punch, ask the folks at brownells, I'm sure they have exactly what you need for this ready to ship along with the sight.


--Tinker

some good advice in the last post. Ill add that i pop those pins out use a small brad nail. I works fine. It doesnt take much to get them out. You will need a drill though to intall the new one a dave doest drill the hole in the blade. theres to much variation in where the guns are drilled at ruger. All you do is place the sight in the gun and mark the hole and drill it and then pop in the new pin. When you buy one just ask dave to throw in a new pin as you wont want to reuse the old one.

Thanks Lloyd

Good note form you too, if I might add - when that new sight is in place waiting for it's new pin hole, clamp it in there with a vise, vise grips, or 'c-clamp'
The drill bit can make that sight blade 'walk around' a bit while you're drilling the new hole.


--Tinker

I just wanted to add that with loads as strong as you are shooting the grip is the single most important factor in my books.
It is going to jump and twist in your hand something fierce.
You can buy a new bisley grip frame for the blackhawk, that is what they are made for and I would bet it will lower your groups a couple of inches at that distance..
And then you are actually just about right in my opinion for whatever you would want to hunt with that kind of setup.

And for comparison's sake-

The blackhawk with stock grip configuration


The bisley configuration



Thanks to Bucko for the note.


--Tinker

Thanks for the note on changing the grip to the Bisley style. It will happen some day. Not enough time or $ in the kitty before my Sept 5 departure for Nome and my Grizzly hunt. I'm going to order a .595" Ruger front sight from Brownell along w/ the appropriate .0675" roll stainless steel roll pins and punch pin. Try and fix the problem my self. If my POI is too low, what file would you suggest I have on hand to file the sight down a skootch?

GSSP

A compact single cut mill file would be my choice.
This is the pattern you're after


A relatively fine cut will be good for this job, a 6" or 8" file would be handy.

Get on that Brownell's sight height calculator - now - and see what small difference in sight height makes on POI at whatever range you're shooting at.
Go do that and 'really get it' so that you won't be in the dark on this issue when it's time to make it work.


--Tinker

After all the research and suggestions from the AR board members, I sent my RBH off to Clements gunsmithing. Talked to him this am. He received my gun 2 days ago and happened to have it on his workbench, in front of him. He agreed, my front sight was of factory height but needed to come up .030" to make it work but that was with the rear sight still bottomed out. So he is installing a .060" higher, thinner (.110") front sight for $50. Also told me he was replacing the factory rear with a new one as mine's top/sides was getting worn; for free! Said he would have it done and out the door in 2-3 days. That's service! Plenty of time for me to sight it in, practice and take it with me to AK for my 8 Sept Grizzly hunt.

Oh yeah! Yesterday, ordered a Mernickle Field Carry 1 holster and 6-round ammo slide in brown mahogony.

Can't wait!

Aim lower

quote:

Originally posted by billinthewild:
Aim lower

seems like the simplest solution to me!!!!!

I have applied all the corrections mentioned above and really do see aiming lower as a viable solution. I "did the math" with a similar load using my 5.5" Redhawk and found three to four inches of maximum hight in the trajectory allowed me something past 100 yard zero, plenty for most iron sight shooting with my level of skill. If it hits a 10 inch paper plate to a bit past 100 yards, I'm in the venison.

Just talked to Gary Clements. Gun went out 2 days ago w/ a new, blued front sight and should be here by Friday. Aaaahhhhh shoot! I'll be in Sun Valley, Idaho on a business trip.

I'll post pics when I return.

Aaha! Wife just called from home. Package just arrived (two days early; gotta love Priority Mail!). At least I can handle it but can't shoot it until next week. Have three saturdays before flying to Nome.

before


After


Fixed the high impact problem and created another. See my new post.

Took it out, got on at 25 yds. Move out to 50 yds and within a total of 13 rounds had a couple of solid 2 to 2-1/2" 3 shot groups at 50 yds, hitting dead on. Loved the .110" "thin" front blade. Gary Clements does good work!