I have been reading this forum site with interest and have learned a great deal. And although I voice no disagreement with some of the "threads," a question comes to mind.

I have reloaded, shot with, and hunted with the .44 Magnum and the 45 Colt for years. My hunting load for the .44 Magnum has been the 240 gr Hornady XTP, and I am presently working with Leadheads 250 grain Keith style bullet.

With the 45 Colt I am using the 250 grain Hornady XTP and the 270 grain Leadheads Keith style.

From javelina through feral hogs, deer sized game to black bear I have had no problem. But I read a great deal of talk about going to 300 grain plus weight on both of these cartridges.

Is it that on larger game, such as Elk, Bison or
the large bears that the heavier weights become more feasible? What am I missing?

Missing ? nothing ! the 300, 330, 333300gr bullets are a fad, not necessary.

I Have been shooting 300 gr xtp's but the price of the 240 xtp is starting to get very appealing-Ben

I have killed several deer with the 240 XTP and they killed great but I never got complete penetration, the bullet stopping against the hide. (rib cage only.) I have to wonder about what would happen if a bone was hit first or a quartering shot taken, if it would go deep enough. I would never trust this bullet on anything larger or tougher then deer. I would use the 300 gr. I switched to the LBT 320 gr WLNGC and and the Lee 310 gr and will never look back, they just kill better, will not stop in an animal and they are not a fad. The confidence they give me takes them out of that class. You will also find that the heavier bullets are more accurate.
The 240 XTP works better if loaded down to slow expansion.

You are correct that the 300 grain and heavier cast bullets are for extreme penetration. That being said, my preference is to always go a little heavier than typical bullet weight when using cast.

In my 45 Colt I use 300 grain WFGC bullets for hunting. This way is something large needs shooting I don't have to think twice. Here in Wyoming when hunting Elk and other things in the backwoods you never know what you will run across.

I should have been a bit more detailed in my comment .My experience is limited in that I've only used one bullet , the old Speer 225 gr JSWCHP. I only recovered one bullet which hit a rib and went through 30" of deer opening to 50 caliber.Bullet construction makes all the difference in the world.I've heard comments about theXPs expanding well but penetrating not so well.In my old M29 a stead diet of heavy bullets would not be good. For a newer bullet I'd try Nosler partition or Barnes all copper.

I'm sure there are posters here with a lot more experience than I but I have killed dozens of deer and several elk with handguns.
Several years ago I gave up on jacketed bullets after having an XTP open too fast and penetrate just a few inches. NOT a rant on XTP's as they are a decent bullet. Just mentioning the reason for my switch.

I've always done well with the true Keith style bullets; #358429 168 gr in .38's and .357 mags. And the #429421 cast reasonably hard and driven from 1000 to 1300 fps in .44 Spcls and the Mag. They seem to give deep and straight penetration with little drama.

So started to look at the LBT designs and heavier Keith designs. Currently using the LBT's as my hunting bullet in ALL my handguns.
Use the 210 LBT in my .41 mag. The 275 gr in the .44 mag and the 325 gr in my .45 Colt and .454 Casull. The flat point does the damage. The heavier weight and length keeps the penetration deep and STRAIGHT. They worked even better than the old Keith designs.

Take a look at some of the heavier Keith designs or the LBT's. You do not have to drive them extremely fast for large game either. For ranges out to 100 yds I've found that 1100-1200 fps is all I need. Most of my shooting is closer and even 1000-1050 starting velocity works fine.Especially with the heavier slugs. All the extra few hundred FPS helps with is trajectory.

Take a look at CAST. Worth the effort.

FN in MT

What is a LBT bullet?

Swede,

Just one resource-Ben

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

Thanks for that. I went to their site and it was quite informative. I'll try loading some this spring to test. A bit pricey, but if they work well, they may be worth it for hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by .223 VARMINT-VENTALATOR:
Swede,

Just one resource-Ben

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm

Mete, I owned many model 29's and the gun is a lot tougher then you think. I shot many, many thousands of heavy boolits and loads through them without a problem.
We found that the gun is the most accurate when you get from 265 gr's and up in boolit weight. You don't have to push them to the limit either if you want a lighter load.
The 240 and under will not group as tight over different distances and it can be seen through a good spotting scope when shooting distance. The lighter bullets will rotate (corkscrew or spiral) around the bullet path. Heavier bullets will run a true, straight path to the target. We did manage to get the 240 gr silhouette bullet to group in 1/2" at 50 meters but nothing lighter would come close. We could still see the spiral around the flight path even with the best 240 gr loads.
The Smith proved to be very grip sensitive. I could shoot a 1/2" group at 50 meters, lay the gun down, pick it back up and shoot another 1/2" group, but the second group would be as much as 10" away from the first group. This was the reason the Smith never won any IHMSA matches. I tried, believe me. I would hit the first 5 targets dead center. At cease fire and ground all weapons, the gun was put down and could not be held the same for the next 5 shots and I would miss them all. I switched to a Ruger and won Ohio state with 79 out of 80.
I have been shooting and loading 44's since 1956 and have owned many different guns. I know what bullets, boolits, powder and primers work. I know what to do with the brass and what dies work. I have shot them to over 500 meters with astounding accuracy and have shot beer cans at 200 yd's from the bench.
I own larger guns then the .44 but nothing smaller because I consider it one of the best calibers ever made and love the things. If you know what to do, that 29 of yours will sit up and talk. Just realize the way you hold it from session to session will change the point of impact. Never take the gun out of your hand until it is empty if you are shooting groups.

In was very involved with IHMSA in the 80s and IIRC those that used a steady diet of 265s had problems .. I don't understand why the M29 should be more grip sensitive than the Ruger .All handguns are sensitive to grip....As for hunting there is an enormous difference in performance depending on construction.The original Speer 200 gr 45 cal with the big HP had a scored jacket . The bullet wouldn't exit a chuck at short range when hit in the shoulder spine area !They then removed the scoring , then they would exit. I shot a rabbit with the original Nyclad 9mm ,It failed to exit and opened to .75" !...The XTP does not have the reputation for penetration and therefore not recommended for pigs. But when you go to a bullet with tougher construction such as a Nosler or Barnes you get a very different performance NOT dependant on weight.Unfortunately my eyes are not what they used to be so I haven't hunted with handgun for a while....The 44 mag ? It's wonderful !!

mete,

I disagree with you on perfermence not being related to bullet weight in hunting applications. Penetration is the name of the game in hunting and the heavier bullet of similar construction will outpenetrate, therefore outperform the lighter weight bullet. As I've said before, I can not understand why people get hung over expansion when they are using bullets which have an initial diameter starting with ".4". I'm talking hunting revolvers and not the single-shots, which generally use bullets constructed for rifles.

Additional penetration increases the chance of creating exit wounds; exit wounds usually promote bleeding; bleeding out kills animals and creates blood trails. The fact is that if you shoot enough animals, at least one is going to run and will require you to trail it up.

MS, you are RIGHT ON THE MONEY! Expansion is not needed but penetration is. This is why the smallest gun I hunt with is the .44. Anything smaller like the .357 needs expansion and this will limit penetration. I have killed a lot of deer with the smaller calibers and when one goes 40 or more yards through the thick stuff with no blood trail and I have to search a pattern to find them, that put a quick end to expanding small caliber handun bullets.
Mete, yes the gun is grip sensitive and will always shoot better from offhand ( both hands)then from Creedmore. The Super Redhawk shows a tiny tendency for this also but just a firm (not tight) hold on it will eliminate the problem. It is the grip angle and size of the 29's grip that causes it. It is very hard to set it into the hand exactly the same time to time. A change in the grips can help. Since you say you were involved in IHMSA, go through the records and see how poorly the S&W has done. I kept track of it for years. The S&W is a very accurate gun and will shoot 1/2" groups at 50 meters all day but never showed up in the top revolver classes as winners. Have you ever asked yourself why? I was international class with all guns and really watched the records from every state and the nationals.
I can hold the SBH any which way and still hit steel.
Yes, there were lock up problems with some Smiths under heavy recoil but I shot a lot of heavy loads through the four I owned without any trouble. I think it was the individual gun more then the majority. We used to roll tires down a hill with cardboard targets inside of them and shoot 265 and 300 gr bullets at them double action as fast as we could pull the triggers. I never had one fail to work. Our hands took a beating with the checkering impressions very visible in the skin. Good for a lot of laughs.
If you want to have fun, get one of the S&W silhouette guns with the long barrel and the fancy front sight that you adjust for each distance. Try to sight it in. You will be bald from pulling your hair because it can't be done. It depends on how you hold the gun from group to group and at 200 meters it really shows up. Your spotter will beat you with a club trying to get you on target.

You're missunderstanding what I'm trying to say ! Within one bullet weight there are many different bullets and they will penetrate/expand very differently...However if you take one type of bullet construction and compare different bullet weights the heavier ones penetrate more !...I like big bore too and hunt deer with a 45-70 !I gave up the 300HPs which opened too fast and went to the 300 Nosler ,far better !. It's amazing to hear shotgunners worry about expansion with .70 bore !!!

I see what you are sayin. The independent of bullet weight thing is what I had trouble with.

I agree with both of you about bullets. This is the reason I went to cast with large meplats. No more trying to choose a jacketed bullet that you don't know how the reaction is on game. Too many different ones on the market. Some work great but a lot are made to expand too fast. I don't know why the manufacturers think expansion has to be fast for game. For people, yes, but we don't hunt people.
One shot at a deer that works great is not the yardstick to go by as the bullet can fail on others. I have taken so many deer now with handguns that I know what works time after time with any shot. I will stick with the heavy WLN or WFN for hunting and never worry about it.

Billinthewild,
Appreciated the feedback on my previous post on Ruger BH or Taurus Gaucho. Went ahead with the purchase of the older beefier Ruger Vaquero. Went thru 2 boxes of some light factory rounds and 2 (20rd.) boxes of heavier Buffalo Bore 325 gr hard cast. Whoa Nelly!!

On the subject of 300 gr. ammo.
Anyone have thoughts good or bad on the performance of Nosler Partition handgun bullets? I have a box of 50 on their way in the mail for my first 45LC reloads. Hoping for penetration & weight retention as the Partition Rifle bullets.

p.e.