.

Expansion at the expense of penetration is never good

x-caliber

You have reafirmed, what every experienced hunter soon learns is that you must have enough PENETRATION.

While this is imortant no matter the projectile, including arrows, it is really important when choosing handgun projectiles.

When handgun hunting [applies to muzzle loaders as well, they operate at handgun velocities], many of us have learned that for game bigger than deer, heavy hard cast bullets are the way to go. They will work on deer as well.

Damn, why did you remove your post????

I skimmed over it yesterday but was planning reading it in more detail this morning. What gives?

I do recall that your 260 grain (Partitions?) failed to penetrate well on hog number one even with multiple shots. Do you now see why we fight tooth and nail here sometimes about hardcast flat-nosed bullets versus expanding jacketed bullets? I don't know what other conclusions you drew in your post ('cuz you removed it), but even if that same bullet worked on later hogs, it means that it is inconsistent making it unreliable -- this is precisely why I dislike expanding jacketed bullets in handguns. I want the same performance every time.

JMHO.

Wish you would put yor post back up......

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:
Never mind.

I thought it was a good post, with good information.

First hand experience, with great pictures.

No one was in any way being critical of you...

I thought it to be a good post as well. You learned the hard way about overdriving bullets and exceeding their capacity to hold together. This is the main reason hard cast bullets are favored among some handgun hunters.

I personally found the jacketed bullets that are supposedly built to withstand higher pressure and velocities will experience jacket core separation from time to time. One must be extremely careful in choosing a jacketed bullet once the game exceeds whitetail deer.

Nope, not inconsistent at all. They all exited and always do in my experience. Where is the inconsistency in that? Your bullets failed to exit and evidently didn't even reach the vitals in hog number one. Funny that when I followed up on that one hog and shot it multiple times with the .44 mag, all those bullets exited as well -- none recovered.

Glad to see you put your post back up so that we can scrutinize it, like you did to me. You seem to be digging for dirt.

On a side note, I am not fan of the .460 and believe that all ammo for it that is commercially loaded is loaded a bit too fast for my taste. That includes this load which goes over 1,500 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by x-caliber:
And from that same post Mike/TX wrote:

quote:

Being somewhat new to the 454 I have had similar issues when using the Cast Performance 265gr WFN running at 1700'ish FPS. I shot one lengthwise and it simply stood there like nothing happened. The second shot as it turned however, wreaked havok on the onside shoulder and literally took it off its feet.

I also have found that using a 260g Mag JHP has worked out much better at he same velocity range. The last one I got with it, hit the ground so quick I actually thought I missed it. The internal damage was similar to the CP bullet, and nothing close to what I expected. Considering the range was only about 20yds at max I figured I had simply ruined the poor thing. I was relieved to find a nice 1" or so entry through the onside shoulder and a caliber sized exit. The in between was however jello.

His experience mirrors mine with jacketed bullets at high velocity on hogs.

Many believe that they work better if slowed down a bit.

Of course without a complete autopsy it is diffcult to know exactly what was hit.

Sorry I read that into your post. But, glad you put the original post back up as it was useful IMO.

Still not a real fan of the .460 -- I prefer the .475 -- just seems to make more of an impression (on both shooter and game!).

BTW -- where do you hunt? Those are some nice looking hogs!

Thank you sir, you are a gentleman!

Oh, and you will love your .475......

This is good stuff!

That's a really nice revolver you got there! Keep us posted on your load development.

I am not lucky enough to have pigs for testing, just deer. Some of the results talked about mirror what I experience.
I always use hard cast but have learned they can NOT be driven too fast. I would say that is what happened with Whitworth's work with the .460.
My 45-70 BFR gives me fits because it shoots 1631 fps and all I get is a clean hole through deer, no internal damage and large blood vessels need to be cut to recover one. The same type boolits from a .45 Colt work perfectly.
I am convinced that a WLN or WFN going too fast will create a pressure wave ahead of it and move tissue out of the way with a useless secondary wound channel that collapses after boolit passage. Reducing the velocity and pressure wave, increasing "dwell time" in the animal and internal damage is increased.
To get my 45-70 to work I had to soften the boolits so expansion and boolit slowdown in the animal makes them work however I went too far last season by including a hollow point so a lot of meat was ruined.
As you increase velocity you then need to work on the alloy used. Jacketed bullets can fill this spot but only experience can tell you which one will work. Most have small meplats so some expansion is desirable but too quick expansion can stop penetration. Very hard bullets can fail unless velocity is very high.
Even the size and toughness of the animal can alter all the testing because it changes what the boolit/bullet does in passage.
X-caliber has shown very well what happens and it is a good post. I like what he says about the round ball. I killed hundreds of deer with a .45 round ball and none went anywhere. (People always told me the .45 was too small, can't prove it by me!) Moving to .50 and .54 made the traditional gun more effective. They just plain work and nobody will ever talk me into an inline.
I found the Ruger Old Army cap and ball will kill deer very fast. The secret for a pure round ball is as the animal gets larger, just use a larger caliber with a heavier ball. You do not want to try and load hard lead balls.
The old timers knew what worked but then the wheel had to be reinvented by sticking pistol bullets in a sabot, starting the problems of bullet selection all over again.
When they make a 1 in 60" twist for a round ball in an inline, I might buy one.
I do not want a .454 or .460 with additional problems using hard cast or choosing the proper jacketed. The cycle starts again. The .460 was designed for long range, high velocity, light bullets that blow a deer to pieces at close range. Use a fast hard cast and they can fail to kill good enough to recover game. Slow it down so it works and why not just use a .45? These two calibers never impressed or interested me.
Now the .475 DOES impress me, the right boolits at the right velocity. Then the .500's impress me too.
Think of the revolver the same way you think of a round ball muzzle loader, go bigger and heavier instead of making the gun faster. The great thing about this is that the larger gun still works on deer without destroying them yet will kill anything on earth.

That is a super nice looking gun. You will fall more in love with it after each animal.
Just use real knapped flint or that newer stuff. Stay away from cut rock. Track of the Wolf sells good flints.
My .45's are flinter's. I love them.

x-caliber,maybe a crazy question coming at you so be prepared.You say you haven't been able to find a HC bullet that shoots good out of your bp pistol,seems like,if I remember the maxi-hunter bullet was cast and didn't use a sabot.Could you measure out you barrel,and find a mould where you could run a cast with out the sabot?Say .502 or .511 something like that?

quote:

Posted 11 April 2010 19:48 Hide Post
x-caliber,maybe a crazy question coming at you so be prepared.You say you haven't been able to find a HC bullet that shoots good out of your bp pistol,seems like,if I remember the maxi-hunter bullet was cast and didn't use a sabot.Could you measure out you barrel,and find a mould where you could run a cast with out the sabot?Say .502 or .511 something like that?

Still very hard because of the super fast twist. Most are like 1 in 28". A good boolit shooter will be about 1 in 48" and a round ball shooter will be 1 in 60" to 1 in 66" depending on caliber.
The inline is a misfit, hard to load too.

Hogs are fun to hunt, and great to eat. In fact I had wild hog for dinner last night.

Hogs can be tough to kill, even with good hits.

The last hog I shot with a 44 Mag rifle I was using the Hornady factory 225gr Lever Evolution.

It was a slight quatering shot at about 40 yards and the hit the gorund hard, DRT.

However, the wife and I both have shot igs with 12 ga slugs at about 20 yards or so. Both shots were tight behind the shoulder [trying to save the meat ], both gave complete penetration, both hogs ran @80 yards, neither left a sot of blood on the ground.

BFR funny you should mention "Dwell Time" that was one theory the British used for their handgun rounds durring the WW's.

x-caliber

Telll me about using buckshot on pigs.

That is something I would like to try with my Combo Guns.

If you are going after hog with buckshot, try out Dixie Tri-Ball buckshot - three .60" 315gr hard cast "pellets" at 1100fps. Tight patterns to 50 yards are the norm with this big buckshot round.

quote:

Originally posted by RMc:
If you are going after hog with buckshot, try out Dixie Tri-Ball buckshot - three .60" 315gr hard cast "pellets" at 1100fps. Tight patterns to 50 yards are the norm with this big buckshot round.

Those are awesome With a choke diameter of .660 and 1" of paralel side all 3 of the 60 caliber buck shot will be with in 3 to 4 inches of each other at 40 yards.
I also have some of the DiXie Slugs for a smoth bore the are 870 grains at 1200 FPS, that I am going to test as soon as I get the chance. I know that they will be an awsome performer. Thsy are heat treated hard cast

JWP

I have been getting the same 3-4 inch 40 yard patterns with a Briley .695 extended choke in my Remington 870s - they shoot to the point of aim for me with just the bead on a 26" vent rib.

quote:

Originally posted by RMc:
JWP

I have been getting the same 3-4 inch 40 yard patterns with a Briley .695 extended choke in my Remington 870s - they shoot to the point of aim for me with just the bead on a 26" vent rib.

I have the Briley extend chokes .660 diameter with 1" parralel sides and the load realy increases the effectiveness og buck shot in my experience

Here's a good link on all this - http://www.shotgunworld.com/bb...ic.php?f=77&t=155153. Even Dixie got involved in the discussion.

I've never used the tri-shot, although I began my deer hunting career with buckshot, in places where it's an old tradition to run deer to the hunters with dogs. In that case, buckshot has its uses. But, my overall experience led me to gravitate away from shotguns for deer, then to muzzleloading, then to rifles and finally to handguns, which I prefer over all else...just a pistolero at heart I suppose.

The buckshot worked, but there were some downsides (I'm talking 00 and the like, not the tri-shot). Actually, I could use it if I wanted to. I hunt birds and waterfowl with a Rem 1187, and some years ago bought an RS barrel for it. It's a 21" adjustable rifle sights, smooth bore, IC choke (I've seen IM recommended for the tri-shot) and is chambered for 3". It's surprisingly accurate at 50 yds with RSs.

Tri-shot or other buckshot for me would have to be used in Arkansas and Mississippi. My home state of Tenn. doesn't allow buckshot. Or dogs for deer. Slugs alone are OK however. So, the tri-shot's something that can't be used in just any state. I suspect its best use may be hogs or bear where it's allowed.

x-caliber,

My hunting with the 454 has been limited to mostly hogs as they are generally easier to put the sneak on up in the brush we hunt. My friend presented me with the Raging Bull one year for a birthday present and along with it a couple of boxes of factory Win ammo. I used it on two shots at hogs, but due to user error missed them both completely in a wide open pasture at less than 50yds.LOL

With the handloads, I have run both of the afore mentioned bullets up to "my" max loads. I don't back down from recoil, but there is a limit to what I like to shoot and be comfortable with.

The loads I have settled on are basically the bottom end loads for these bullets and W-296. They shoot VERY well and group much better than I can hold out to 100yds. In the above mentioned hunting, the first hog was hit just under the chin, more or less in the collar bone area and the bullet simply whistled right on through not hitting much if anything along the way, and exited just a tad off the side of the poop shoot. The second round went right through the shoulder and exited just in front of the offside ham which finished the deal. This was all happening at a range of about 30' and very quickly. We had stalked up on them while they were sunning on the side of a tank dam. We simply caught them relaxed and when the one stood to stretch I hammered it.

A second one of that bunch was hit with the WFN, about an inch back from the end of it's snout, and the bullet exited through the left ham, it dropped on the spot.

The last one which I think I put up a picture of was hit broadside, right through the onside shoulder with the 260gr Mag JHP, and it exited just behind the offside shoulder. That one literally splattered mud up in the bushes behind it about 4' high. It hit the ground so fast I actually thought I missed it in the thick underbrush. When I cleaned it I was actually surprised at the lack of massive damage that I thought would be the case. The bullet had opened up somewhat or maybe even a lot as it was not recovered. IT went through the onside shoulder just behind the main point, and more or less removed a 1.5 - 2" hole right on through to the exit. It took out both lungs, a couple of ribs, and the top side of the heart. I was expecting more or less damage similar to what a Ballistic Tip might have done.

This past weekend this revolver was used to take a fairly decent ram by the owner of some property we hunted with. He made the shot at 45yds and hit the ram just behind the onside shoulder and it exited just in front of the offside. He was using the WFN loaded with 34grs of 296 and the ram had a meltdown on the spot. On the outside it was one caliber hole going in, and about a quarter sized exit. The internal stuff was wrecked with bone being shattered and bits going everywhere. The ram never knew what hit it.

For the most part I have been hunting the hogs with my 41 mag for the past 8 - 10 years. In this time I have mainly used the Remington 200gr JHP loaded to about 1300fps. I have found that this has dropped 90% of the hogs shot within a few feet, if that far. The other 10% were in my opinion not hit properly but still dropped, and required a second shot. I am not saying that this is a magic load, or that it is better than cast loads, but with the slower than top end velocities, and the ranges we normally shoot it between 5' and 40yds, it has worked time and time again, for me and my bud. IT is a very accurate load from both of our 41's, and when put in through the shoulder or tight behind it, it simply works. We don't always get an exit but we're more concerned about the hogs hitting the ground, which they do to frequently for us to change what we using.

With the 454, it has been a hoot to learn to shoot and I am hoping this summer and fall to get more actual field time with it. I have also been working hard to get into archery, and it is hard to have both with me at the same time, then decide which one to use when the hogs come in.

Good information, Mike!

Mike, as I have some interest in the 454 and am looking at loads (factory) could you clarify about the fps of what you were using? I searched Win's e-site and found in factory loads from them a 250 gr at 1300 fps and one or more 260 gr bullets at 1800. The 1800 unfortunately is more recoil than I'm up for, so I'm wondering if the 1300 is similar to what you were using when you said "basically the bottom end loads for these bullets".

I'm not a handloader and so far have been using .44 and .41 in factory loads for deer.

Btw, the .41 load you describe of a Rem 200 gr JHP @ 1300 is REAL close to the factory Cor-Bon .41 load I've used for some years now for standard size whitetails with the greatest of satisfaction on the results. It's a 210 JHP @ 1350 and the bullet I think is by Sierra. It appears then the .41 in this class load is perfect for your hogs and my deer.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
Mike, as I have some interest in the 454 and am looking at loads (factory) could you clarify about the fps of what you were using? I searched Win's e-site and found in factory loads from them a 250 gr at 1300 fps and one or more 260 gr bullets at 1800. The 1800 unfortunately is more recoil than I'm up for, so I'm wondering if the 1300 is similar to what you were using when you said "basically the bottom end loads for these bullets".

I'm not a handloader and so far have been using .44 and .41 in factory loads for deer.

Btw, the .41 load you describe of a Rem 200 gr JHP @ 1300 is REAL close to the factory Cor-Bon .41 load I've used for some years now for standard size whitetails with the greatest of satisfaction on the results. It's a 210 JHP @ 1350 and the bullet I think is by Sierra. It appears then the .41 in this class load is perfect for your hogs and my deer.

Shack,

The 8 3/8" barrel on the Raging Bull makes it a dream to shoot even if the darn thing is like holding out a double handfull of plumbers lead. The loads I am using are with the bottom end load recommended by Cast Performance for their 265gr WFN GC. IT comes out of my barrel at just about 1750fps or there abouts. I haven't done an extensive chrono session with them due to I only have about a half box of them left. But for the accuracy I get, I am not really worried about how fast they are going as they hit and punch holes in whatever I point them at.

The 260gr Mag JHP's I have run across the chrono enough to know that about 36 grains is plenty for me anyway, and rolls them out just under 2000fps. I really do not like that and figure that should I ever need it I could handle it for a limited time, but for casual shooting and hunting I haven't found a need for it yet. So I stick with the same load I use for the cast bullets and it makes life so much easier. They are about in the middle of the two loads you mentioned.

That said, the lower end loads by Winchester in my gun are really nothing at all to shoot, just too darn expensive. In fact the top end ones are just about right for a good hunting load, and about what I initially started out with. In reality compared to the factory Freedom Arms ammo, they are pretty tame. I can tell you this, the 454 loaded to top end levels will either make you or break you. I have shot them in a Freedom Arms Field grade and they were right on the very edge of what I was comfortable with holding in my hands. I haven't had any through my Bull and probably won't, due to price, but I have touched off a box or two of similar loaded handloads, and realized I am not quite as bad as they were.

Now I am satisfied with the fact I have been there and know it can be done, if needed or wanted, but I would rather keep my loads just a bit over heavy 45 Colt loads and be happy with the results.

With the 41, and even my 44 I have found that somewhere between 1200 and 1500fps on just about any load will do anything I need down with most any of the bullets I shoot in either of them. I have shot the Sierra's quite a bit, and still have quite a few on the shelf. I just got to shooting the Remington's and once I found how well they shot I got them in bulk on sale when they offered them. My actual favorite of all time was their 170gr SJHP which had a big exposed lead HP nose on it, and a nice scalloped jacket similar to the old 240gr in 44. That one I liked to drive to the top end and it would really rock. But the accuracy of the loads we use now is hard to compete with and the mild recoil is easy on both the gun and me. It uses a dose of 20.5gr of 296 and rolls out of my Redhawk and my buds 657 right around 1350fps. They work on everything we have used them on and work well. Like I mentioned they might not be the best for everything or everyone, but they work well for us. The only other bullet I liked was the Sierra 220gr Sil. but like most good bullets for this caliber they dropped it due to lack of sales or so they said anyway.