My .45/70 10" Magnum Research is not done educating me on powder choices. It seemed like H4227 was going to be my deer load but the occasional high flyer was NOT me. The chronograph showed a 300 fps drop in velocity from the 1650 fps that corresponded with the flyer. Obviously H4227 is position sensitive.at 36 grains with a 300 grain hornady and I really don't want to fool with fillers. I went up to 41 grains of XMP 5744 with the 300 grain bullet in the hope that a hotter load might give a more complete burn but there still were too many unburned nuggets along with poorer accuracy than 34 grains @ 1350 fps. On a brighter note, 15.5 grains of good ole Unique did a 10 shot 1 3/4" group at 50 yards with Laser-Cast 350 gr. bullets. A box of 20 year old 405 gr. jacketed Win. factory loads did 1 1/2" at 50 yards at 1125 fps with a complete powder burn. Out of curiosity, I pulled a bullet on one of those factory loads and found 20.6 grains of a slightly flattened ball powder. Would anyone care to hazard a guess as to what powder that may be? Any other powder suggestions? Slower powders (such as H4198) haven't worked untill you end up with a nearly full case and more recoil than needed for a whitetail deer. I haven't tried 2400 but wonder if it might be a good choice. I might be deer hunting with Unique yet! Any ideas?
I had bad luck with slow powders also. I got good accuracy with IMR 4227. I haven't tried any of the faster powders like 2400. I'd be interested to here about any results you get with it though.
Lar45
White Label Lube Co. www.lsstuff.com Carnauba Red high speed cast bullet lube.
Posts: 2924 | Location: Arkansas | Registered: 23 December 2002
Dawg, I made a mould for an LBT WLNGC type boolit that weighs 317 gr's. I use 31 gr's of SR 4759, A tuft of polyester fiberfill over the powder, Felix lube and a Fed LR primer. Velocity is 1535 fps and it thumps deer great. This load is extremely accurate. 4198 seems to increase pressure with the cast boolit but works fine with the 300 gr Hornady. 42 gr's will give you 1636 fps. Any slower powder will not burn completely. I tried 4227 and did not get the accuracy I did with 4759. 4227 is also very temperature sensitive. It leaves a lot of space in the case too.
bfrshooter I have some SR 4759 here and my question to you is would you get erratic velocity readings without the filler? Most of the lighter weight .458" cast bullets seem to have rounded noses, not the big meplat that gives the killing power, probably so they feed in lever guns. Apparently you've solved that problem.
Lar45 I'm going to call a couple of the powder manufacturers and see what they recommend and if I learn anything I'll post it here. Sure would like to know what powder Winchester uses in their factory loads but I'm sure they aren't telling. For 20.6 gr. to give 1125 fps in the BFR and 1250 out of my Ruger #1 it must be a little slower than Unique but faster than 2400..................Hmmmm
Doghawg, I tried them without filler and didn't see much difference. Maybe just a slight loss in accuracy. I started with the filler and have shot this gun to 500 yd's with great accuracy so I just stayed with it. It is so easy to put it in this big case that I don't mind. By the way, it drops about 26 feet at 500 yd's. I was hitting steel by aiming at a spot in a tree above the target. More fun then I've had in a long time. Recoil is pleasant too. 700, the H322 sounds interesting. How much would I use for a 317 cast boolit?
I called Hodgdon, Accurate, and Alliant today. The tech guy at Hodgdon's gave me the usual song and dance about published loads only, etc. He said the reason there were no published loads for H4227 was that it was unsuitable for the .45/70. He obviously wanted to discourage any experimenting which is understandable in todays legal environment I guess. At the other two companies so-and-so was busy or away from his desk and would return the call if I left a name and number. We know the drill, NO CALL! I'll be trying SR 4759 and 2400 this weekend.
Let me tell you about my experience with 4227, both IMR and H. When I started silhouette I was told to use it in the .44 SBH. Everyone was using 25 gr's with a 240 bullet. I started with 23 and worked up a very accurate load. I shot slow and easy with a lot of walking between groups. At the next shoot I would hit the first target dead center, the next lower, the next lower yet, then into the ground. At the ram line, when I got to the last one I was 16 clicks higher then the first ram and hit 50 yd's short. The problem was heat! The load got faster and faster as the gun heated. I was getting very flat primers so I dropped to 21 gr's and still the problem persisted and I still got flat primers. I switched to 296 and won Ohio state with 79 out of 80. I don't trust 4227 at all. It is very cartridge specific, position sensitive and very heat sensitive. The stuff scares me! The only caliber it has worked in for me was the .357 max. Come to think of it, all the guys that used it never shot a good score except with the .357 max. It will shoot good in the .44 if it is shot slow and the gun kept cold. If it is hot outside, forget it! The powder I have left will sit in the drawer forever as far as I am concerned. I might set it on fire some day. Everyone says they love the stuff and I have to wonder how they shoot, a couple of shots, then put the gun away? I'm afraid to put it in that big 45-70 case. You can post 100 more answers to this, but I will never change my mind. Ken Waters, in Pet Loads says the published load of 30 gr's of 4227 with a 400 gr bullet proven dangerously hot. He says not to use it or 2400 in anything but the lightest loads. I will keep both of these out of my 45-70.
Been working over the summer (with the ported 18-1/2 inch Guide Gun) to come up a 45/70 300 grain lead bullet load at pistol velocities. With the 300 grain Lasercast roundnose flatpoint bevelbase so far nothing has worked quite as well as trapdoor charges of 2400 and a pinch of dacron fiber. I'd be happy to find a bulkier powder as avoiding double charges and messing with pillow stuffing calls for extra special attention to detail. Good hunting!
Okay, we need a bulky powder that is easy to ignite. In the Oct. issue of Handloader magazine there is an article by R. H. VanDenburg that covers IMR's new cowboy powder called Trail Boss. He tried the powder in a .45/70 and claimed to get good accuracy at trapdoor pressures with his Marlin. The only load shown was 16.5 gr. with a 300 gr. bullet for 1337 fps. Whether that charge filled the case or not he doesn't say but if the velocity could be kicked up a bit more this powder may have possibilities. At any rate, this might be a good choice for reduced loads for practice or plinking. Off to the IMR website I go..............
I may have been going about this all wrong! In the same issue of Handloader is an article by Brian Pearce in which he states that the ideal dia. for an expander ball in a hard kicker would be at least .004 smaller than bullet dia. A micrometer tells me the dia. of my RCBS expander has a slight taper from .456" to .457" at the case mouth. That's not much bullet pull on a .458" bullet! I automatically assumed that inconsistent velocity and incomplete combustion were a product of powder choices. I've got so many sticks in the fire and so little time lately that I've forgotten reloading basics.
I'm going to skip the expander step with 300 gr. Hornady bullets. That will work with jacketed loads and should improve ignition. Stay tuned.
Just got back from a few days in the woods in pursuit of the few ruffed grouse that could be found. I took the BFR .45/70 along with 50 rounds of 350 gr. Laser-Cast over 15.5 gr. of Unique. I like shooting at clay targets set up on stumps or branches from hunting postions. It's good practice and the accuracy of that load and gun is outstanding. Too bad that bullet doesn't have a little more meplat.
As a follow-up on this topic I've made a few discoveries. My incomplete combustion problems all occured with 300 gr, jacketed bullets. I've had more consistent velocity and accuracy with 405 gr jacketed Speer and Remington bullets. This weekend the chrony showed 1275 fps with a 405 Rem over 30 gr. of IMR 4759 and produced a 50 yard group of 1 1/4". A 405 gr. Speer seated to the bottom crimping groove over 29 gr. of Alliant 2400 put 4 shots in an inch with one called flyer at 1325 fps. One of these two loads is going deer hunting down in a northern Wisc. cedar swamp next month. Even if that big boxcar of a bullet doesn't expand much at 1300 fps the flat nose should create enough of a meplat to handle any whitetail at the 25 to 75 yard ranges I'll likely encounter. I'm tempted to retry H4198 and H4227 with 405 gr. bullets and skipping the expander/belling step but that's a project for AFTER deer season.
I have been using a .44 Mag expander plug for loading .454 Casull rounds. This give excellent case tension on the bullets. If you have a .45ACP or Colt expander plug available, you may want to try that in order to improve case neck tension.
If ignorance is bliss; there are some blissful sonofaguns around here. We know who you are, so no reason to point yourselves out.
Originally posted by MS Hitman: I have been using a .44 Mag expander plug for loading .454 Casull rounds. This give excellent case tension on the bullets. If you have a .45ACP or Colt expander plug available, you may want to try that in order to improve case neck tension.
Is this so you only bell the case mouth without expanding it at all?
Lar45
White Label Lube Co. www.lsstuff.com Carnauba Red high speed cast bullet lube.
Posts: 2924 | Location: Arkansas | Registered: 23 December 2002
Originally posted by doghawg: ". A 405 gr. Speer seated to the bottom crimping groove over 29 gr. of Alliant 2400 put 4 shots in an inch with one called flyer at 1325 fps. .
I thought this thing was finally figured out and all that was left to do was find a deer to test the load on. I did a little shooting today to verify the zero of my 2x Leupold. The first shot was 5" high @ 50 yds. @ 1130 fps and the next 4 were on the button in a 1" at 1325 fps ave. The BFR was loaded with the muzzle down and the 2400 was apparently forward in the case for the first shot and against the primer (after recoil) for the remaining four. It would seem that the solution is fillers (which I don't want to use) or a bulkier powder. This position problem has been encountered with several powders but never with Unique which I assume is because it's easier to light.
I'll be loading up some 400 Speers with Reloader #7 which is supposed to be THE .45/70 powder. There"ll be a bit more recoil but hopefully this will be the end of this BS. I've been getting outstanding accuracy all along but these occasional flyers are not a confidence builder for hunting use. This has been an interesting project but I'm glad the .500 is ready to go just in case.
Well, my FINAL final load is 40.5 gr. of Reloader #7 under a 400 gr. Speer flat point sparked by a WLR primer for an ave. of 1310 fps.The accuracy is the best encountered with this gun and scope. 5 shots into 7/8" @ 50 yards. I thought that may have been a fluke until the next 4 shots were again at 1" and I blew the last shot for a 2 inch group.
The velocity spread for 10 shots was from 1289fps to 1331. The reason for the .5 in the charge is 2 drops with a # 24 rotor in a RCBS Little Dandy powder measure gives a very uniform 40.5 gr. This charge doesn't leave a lot of airspace in the .45/70 case which has apparently eliminated my occasional squib flyer. I guess I was trying to reinvent the wheel with with some of my tinkering but now this will be the whitetail load and 15 gr. of Unique under a Laser Cast 350 gr will be my practice load. Now, bring on the 8 point buck!
