dont know pal but i have two 4 inch 500 linebaughs that are extreamly accurate at both short and long range. i have a 4 inch redhawk that shoots 340 lfns into an inch a 50 yards and a few short barreled 45 colts that do well ONLY with heavy bullets. I dont believe in a minute that a 4 inch barrel is to short to stabilize a heavy bullet using slow burning powders. Ive done it 100s of thousands of times with success. A 8 inch barrel with the wrong twist isnt going to do a bit differnt then a 4 inch one with the same twist and wtih the proper twist a short barrel will do as well as a long one. It may take a tad hotter load to do it but most guns twisted for heavier bullets are twisted fast enough to stablize them at lower speeds too.

Accuracy is accuracy and I never said a short barrel in itself is not accurate but you should be the first to admit they are hard to work with once a boolit gets too long.
Match the boolit and powder to the barrel length and a short barrel is as accurate as a long one. I can only ask for one thing, do you have any 100 yard targets shot with your short barrels to show? I really would like to see what a long heavy boolit and slow powder does because I don't have any short barrels. My shortest is 7-1/2".
Maybe I am wrong so help me out here.

sorry pal but my eyes dont allow for group shooting at a 100 yards with open sights anymore and if i have to put a scope on a long barreled sixgun ill pass and use a lever gun. To me a sixgun needs to ride on my hip in a holster. I can tell you they shoot good enough at long range to win there class at the linebaugh long range shoot and that was 800 yards. Dont know what the group size would possibly have been but if there consistant at that range they sure are stablilized and im not into computers or cammers enough that i would even ever bother taking a picture of a target. If someone doesnt want to trust my word then they dont know me. If you want charater references i can provide them but could care less to see pictures of targets that just as well could have been shot at 25 as a 100 anyway. If you tell me your gun shoots into a 1/2 inch at a 100 yards then thats good enough for me. by the way at the last seminar i was at the long range shoot was dominated by short barreled guns. A 5.5 inch 44 a 4 5/8s 45colt a 4 5/8s 475 and a 4 inch 500 won there classes and i know for a fact dustin linebaugh took a grizzly at 200 yards off hand with his 4 5/8s 475 so short barreled big bore will shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Accuracy is accuracy and I never said a short barrel in itself is not accurate but you should be the first to admit they are hard to work with once a boolit gets too long.
Match the boolit and powder to the barrel length and a short barrel is as accurate as a long one. I can only ask for one thing, do you have any 100 yard targets shot with your short barrels to show? I really would like to see what a long heavy boolit and slow powder does because I don't have any short barrels. My shortest is 7-1/2".
Maybe I am wrong so help me out here.

quote:

To me a sixgun needs to ride on my hip in a holster

A Doctersight - let you still ride something on your hip

shadob

IF or when a fella gets where he cannot use "iron sights" effectively, whether on a handgun, rifle or shotgun, then a Docter Optic sight is a most excellent idea.

I use them on some of my long guns.

Ive got a few guns that optics could be put on but most of mine six and five guns are fixed sighted guns that wouldnt allow it of would look terible with them. I guess im bullheaded but i dont care for optics on a revolver any more then i like a barrel over 6 inches. Im kind of fortunate in that where i hunt there a 100 yard shot is rare and 50 or under is the norm. I can still shoot well enough to keep all my shots in the vitals at a 100 yards but i dont know for how long. When i cant ill just reduce my max range to 50 yards and that will probably buy me enough years to get so old i cant hunt anyway but if not ill just throw a scope on a lever gun. theres nothing wrong with scoped handguns if thats what you like. I used them myself for years. to me its more of thing like bow hunting. I found it no harder to hit with a scoped sixgun then a rifle out to a 100 yards and it go boring. Nothing like the thrill of bow hunting up close and personal and i started doing my handgun hunting the same way and i wont go back unless i have to. I guess to me barrel lenght is a personal prefernce and has little to do with actual performance whether it be accuracy or game taking ability. Personaly i just shoot a short barreled gun off hand better then a long barreled gun.

Not doubting you at all Lloyd, I just do not have any short guns and the main reason was my transition from IHMSA shooting to hunting. Shooting a long barrel from Creedmore is a lot better then keeping a short one from shooting holes in pant legs or creasing my leg.
But experience with 10" barrels on Contenders with the wrong calibers too large for the length drove everyone nuts. The same as my 45-70 BFR with a 10" barrel, it was a real battle to find a powder that works and there is only one that does. I just can't picture the trouble a 4" 45-70 would cause.
Where we hunt deer, it is rare to see any at full light so open sights just vanish, I might as well take them off the gun! A pistol scope is worse and I can't see either the deer or cross hairs until the sun is up and by then the deer have all gone by. The Ultra Dot allows me to hunt anytime of day. Once your eyes get so old, the open sight purest thing will go away.

have to laugh just thinking about shooting my 4 5/8s 454 creadmore style. Id probably take your calf right off!

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
Accuracy is accuracy and I never said a short barrel in itself is not accurate but you should be the first to admit they are hard to work with once a boolit gets too long.
Match the boolit and powder to the barrel length and a short barrel is as accurate as a long one. I can only ask for one thing, do you have any 100 yard targets shot with your short barrels to show? I really would like to see what a long heavy boolit and slow powder does because I don't have any short barrels. My shortest is 7-1/2".
Maybe I am wrong so help me out here.

Twist rate is the deciding factor on bullet stabilization, not barrel lenght

quote:

have to laugh just thinking about shooting my 4 5/8s 454 creadmore style. Id probably take your calf right off!

Yeah, seen a few guys with holes in pants.
I sight for deer hunting from Creedmore so the POI is the same off hand. Some revolvers shoot to a different place off hand if sighted from bags. My .44 and .45 are like that but the BFR's shoot the same place from bags, Creedmore or off hand.
I see you like the shorter guns for off hand and I was like that long ago. When I shot the 10" SBH off hand the barrel would droop and I had to keep raising it. But now even the 10" BFR 45-70 is easy to shoot and a light gun like my Mark II wiggles like crazy, just too light to hold still anymore. I got used to the heavy guns.
One of the reasons I like at least 7-1/2" is that it has less muzzle blast and it is farther from my ears when hunting. I don't even hear the guns when I shoot at a deer but I don't dare shoot one without muffs on the range.
I have a pair of muffs with the electronics and can hear a deer walking but I can't tell where it is so I don't hunt with them. I do not want any gun with a muzzle break either. Barrel length is really a good thing.

Well gents, do you think the LBT style bullet is better because of its SHAPE or its INCREASED WEIGHT.

How would a 250gr LBT perform compaired to a 250 Keith???

How would a 280/300gr Keith bullet do vs a 300gr LBT???

In the late 1970's Elmer Keith did state that he thought a 280 to 300gr Keith bullet at 1200fps, would be better for taking larger game or for long range shooting.

I think he got with Hensley and Gibbs, and they collaberated on a 280 gr Keith SWC.

I know at one time Randy Garrett's 44 Mag load was a 280gr Keith.

On my early bear hunts I was hunting with a rifle] those are the rounds I carried in a 4" S&W.

I never tested them at long range.

first i hate to generalize to much. Ive seen 250swc shoot fine and ive seen some that didnt and i can say the same about lfns and wfns. Its more a matter of which your gun likes then which is a better design. Some bullets are easier to get to shoot well then others and id have to rank the lfn as the easiest and the wfn as the hardest with a GOOD swc design in the middle. Problem is theres lots of swcs out there that are poorly designed. About all of them claim to be keith style bullets and there far from it. I dont have much use for wfns but 44 man has gotten them to shoot well so it can be done. There are lots of variables that make one shoot better then the other in your particular gun. Twist, rifling dept, rifling design, throats, alignment, alloy, load ect. Bottom line is if i want to test a gun to see if its going to be a keeper i will take a heavy for caliber lfngc and cast it hard and push it hard using a slow powder and if the gun wont shoot that it probably wont shoot.

quote:

Well gents, do you think the LBT style bullet is better because of its SHAPE or its INCREASED WEIGHT.

How would a 250gr LBT perform compaired to a 250 Keith???

How would a 280/300gr Keith bullet do vs a 300gr LBT???

Lloyd is right of course.
One reason the LBT shoots better is because of the way it engages the forcing cone.
The Keith contacts the cone with the little edge below the nose and the nose offers no bore alignment at all.
So even if you go to a 250 gr LBT, it will still shoot better then a Keith.
Think of it this way; the LBT will force a cylinder into alignment if it has the proper tiny bit of play but the cylinder will try to align a Keith and it is usually off center unless the gun is absolutely perfect.
Stick the nose of a Keith in the muzzle and when you see how much it wiggles back and forth ask yourself what is guiding it through the forcing cone and into the rifling.
Now tap the boolit on the base and see if you can get a straight start.
The Keith is mechanically unsound.

From Linebaugh seminars:

44Mag.

240gr Keith at 1200fps, 27" of penetration.

300gr LBT at 1520fps, 30" of penetration.

340gr LFN at 1320fps, 32" of penetration.

Looks to me like, for the recoil/energy spent, that the Keith bullet is holding its own.

I wouldnt say a keith is an unsound design but alot of the swc copys with there tiny front driving bands sure are.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:

quote:

Well gents, do you think the LBT style bullet is better because of its SHAPE or its INCREASED WEIGHT.

How would a 250gr LBT perform compaired to a 250 Keith???

How would a 280/300gr Keith bullet do vs a 300gr LBT???

Lloyd is right of course.
One reason the LBT shoots better is because of the way it engages the forcing cone.
The Keith contacts the cone with the little edge below the nose and the nose offers no bore alignment at all.
So even if you go to a 250 gr LBT, it will still shoot better then a Keith.
Think of it this way; the LBT will force a cylinder into alignment if it has the proper tiny bit of play but the cylinder will try to align a Keith and it is usually off center unless the gun is absolutely perfect.
Stick the nose of a Keith in the muzzle and when you see how much it wiggles back and forth ask yourself what is guiding it through the forcing cone and into the rifling.
Now tap the boolit on the base and see if you can get a straight start.
The Keith is mechanically unsound.

Well i do alot of penetration testing myself im the first to admitt theres noting scientific about it. Even the results you posted are a bit twisted. that was my 340 lfn tested. It was shot out of a bisley accusport at a load level that i wont put in print as it was a stiff load for even a redhawk. that bullet actually started to tumble a bit or it would have gone farther. Another thing to keep in mind is that it takes a lot in a penetration test of any gun to gain 5 inches of penetration. Wet print is a tough thing to penetrate. Especially after being shot through bone first. The most important thing is that your bullet is of an alloy that will not deform. Once a bullet deforms penetration goes to hell. Alloy strenth and bullet weight are the two most important factors here. Bullet design really doesnt effect much unless your trying to drive a bullet with a huge metplat.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
From Linebaugh seminars:

44Mag.

240gr Keith at 1200fps, 27" of penetration.

300gr LBT at 1520fps, 30" of penetration.

340gr LFN at 1320fps, 32" of penetration.

Looks to me like, for the recoil/energy spent, that the Keith bullet is holding its own.

Good post Lloyd, right on the money for penetration. Weight is the most important next to the meplat. Flat noses go straight but one that deforms or has a round nose can go anywhere. I have seen the wrong shape go into a stump and exit the top. The boolit was hard, penetrated about 13" before leaving but it turned 90* in the stump.
With the Keith and I have worked with them since about 1953 when they were still original, the average 50 yard groups will run 2" to 3". Now that is fine for deer but I was never happy. The best was the 358156 out of my mod 27 where I was able to hit very small targets at 100 yards but I have never duplicated it with any other .357.
The .44 never was that good at any velocity. Trying to prove a point about hardness I have done a lot more testing and this is a few of the best 25 and 50 yards groups I ever got.
I got tired of the soft lead, obturation stuff still floating around to cure leading. The very worst thing is to shoot soft lead with fast powders like 231, Unique, Bullseye, etc. Slumping and off center boolits through the barrel will ruin shooting.
These were shot with fast powder and 28 to 30 BHN Keith boolits.

Now these were shot from the same gun at 50 yards with a plain Lee, RD 265 gr RNFP. It is even a TL design but I used Felix lube.
I don't know how to show it better.

This picture is from an old Handloader magazine showing what happens to a pretty Keith when it is too soft.
Why not just start with an LBT?

I don't know if anyone noticed the holes from both boolit styles in paper. The Keith's shoulder was thought to cut sharper holes for scoring but I see no difference.
Now the very funniest thing ever said is that the shoulder cuts holes in game!
I reserve all of my Keith boolits for close range, light load plinking because it saves lead.
When I get serious for target and hunting I will not use them at any weight or from any maker.
I really love those commercial pieces of junk with a bevel base!
There is method to my madness!

But, IF you were going to load up a BUNCH of 44 Mag ammo, and you were going to use ONE LOAD for EVERYTHING, could you do do better than an Original Keith 240/250 hard cast lead bullet over 21gr of 2400???

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
But, IF you were going to load up a BUNCH of 44 Mag ammo, and you were going to use ONE LOAD for EVERYTHING, could you do do better than an Original Keith 240/250 hard cast lead bullet over 21gr of 2400???

LOL! Nope, it would be an LFN at about 320 grains over a stiff charge of 296!

quote:

But, IF you were going to load up a BUNCH of 44 Mag ammo, and you were going to use ONE LOAD for EVERYTHING, could you do do better than an Original Keith 240/250 hard cast lead bullet over 21gr of 2400???

I would prefer 50 rounds that hit what I shoot at then 5000 that don't.
That is a very simple answer, quantity does not cure poor accuracy.

my go to load if i had to look at all my 44 loading is the 240 rcbs swcgc bullet at about 1100-1200 fps. Its a very accurate bullet and has accounted for a pile of meat for me.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
But, IF you were going to load up a BUNCH of 44 Mag ammo, and you were going to use ONE LOAD for EVERYTHING, could you do do better than an Original Keith 240/250 hard cast lead bullet over 21gr of 2400???

quote:

Posted 19 March 2010 17:40 Hide Post
my go to load if i had to look at all my 44 loading is the 240 rcbs swcgc bullet at about 1100-1200 fps. Its a very accurate bullet and has accounted for a pile of meat for me.

quote:

Why choose a Keith when you say the other boolits are better?
The targets I showed were shot with an RCBS boolit. The Lee seems to do a whole lot better and has a better meplat.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I don't worry so much about the meplat as long as it is enough to do the job at hand. What I don't like about the Keith is the amount of effort needed to get them to shoot with accuracy. I have had a few like the 429421 and 358156 that shot pretty good but there are a ton of designs that just don't work. More mold makers have messed up this boolit then any other.
The nose does nothing to center a boolit in the forcing cone and the little shoulder is even worse. Take a Keith and stick the nose in the muzzle and you can rattle it back and forth. No guidance at all.
The shoulder does nothing to game and only cuts holes in paper, I will never understand why Elmer fooled with it.
Boolits are like pretty, shiny grips so if a loaded round looks pretty it just has to shoot good, doesn't it?
I can make a Keith shoot but you will not like to hear how and I don't want to argue.
It is a tricky boolit and needs specific things and loads plus it needs to be handled different for each gun so if it shoots good from one SBH or S&W with one load, that does not say it will work in another SBH or S&W.
Now I can take any LBT or Lee RNFP and many other good boolits, find a load for my gun and they will also shoot from any other gun with maybe a tweak in the powder charge to allow for the twist rate between guns.
The Keith should be allowed to die like the dodo bird, it is out dated.
The most accurate bullet made today is the XTP so why not make a cast boolit the same shape?
Can any of you shoot your Keith like this at 200 yards? How about posting some pictures.

my maximum range is 50 yards for game or really even target shooting with a handgun. The keiths shoot reasonably to 150 yards in my marlin lever action though. You are correct about the XTP, I think it is the best jacketed design available today.

because that bullet is just one of those majic bullets that seems to shoot extreamly well in every 44 i put it in. It even shoots well in my marlin 44p that wont shoot any other cast bullet well enough to even trust for hunting. Personaly ive had better luck with it then any 240-250 lfn or wfn. When the weights get heavier around 280 grain the lfns get there legs but for ligher bullets in the 44 my favorites are the rebs 240 swcgc, the lyman 429244 and 429215. These three bullets just seem to outshoot all the other lighter 44 bullets. You have to buck up for gas checks but i dont worry to much about it. I cast a pile of differnt plain based bullets if im just going out rolling beer cans i load them. But if i want a mid range 44 mag load or a stout 44 special load for hunting deer sized game the 240swcgc usualy gets the nod. It hasnt let me down yet an animals as big as 300 lbs.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:

quote:

Posted 19 March 2010 17:40 Hide Post
my go to load if i had to look at all my 44 loading is the 240 rcbs swcgc bullet at about 1100-1200 fps. Its a very accurate bullet and has accounted for a pile of meat for me.

quote:

Why choose a Keith when you say the other boolits are better?
The targets I showed were shot with an RCBS boolit. The Lee seems to do a whole lot better and has a better meplat.

No disputing that the Keith is not a good game boolit but my game is extreme accuracy and that is where it falls down. Decent--yes, killing game--yes. But it ends there when a better boolit not only is more accurate but can kill game even better.

It seems we continue to limit the discussion on Keith style bullets to the .44. There are Keith designs for all the popular revolver rounds, including the 45 Colt.

For what it is worth, my honest opinion is that the Keith is every bit as good as the other designs out there... The Lyman 410459 in front of 21 grains of IMR 4227 has shot lights out in every .41 Magnum I ever shot it in. That load was far more accurate than I was, even when my eyes were good. Most days it's accuracy was right with jacketed bullets, some days better. Again, it was how well I shot as much as how well the projectile fit the firearm.

The H&G 503 is an outstanding design, and it is not a WFN. But it kills with authority. Ditto the Lyman 454424 and the 358429. Make the bullets weigh the same, pay attention to things like case length, primer seating pressure, case mouth crimp, cylinder throat size, etc., and watch those bullets perform like jacketed.

There are far too many variables that are not discussed here. Take bullets from a four-cavity mould, load them up and shoot them. They are only as accurate as the cavities are... Different weights will hit in different places on paper, and we all know that.

In short, this is nothing more than a discussion on what we as individuals prefer. The Keiths will continue to outkill the LBTs because more rounds are loaded with Keiths than LBTs every year, I suspect.

And as far as "killing game better", dead is dead. You can't get any more dead than dead.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless: The Keiths will continue to outkill the LBTs because more rounds are loaded with Keiths than LBTs every year, I suspect.

And as far as "killing game better", dead is dead. You can't get any more dead than dead.

I have to respectfully disagree that more handgun hunters are using Keiths than LBT designs. I don't know how deeply involved in hadgun hunting you are, but most handgun hunters that I know long ago made the leap to the more modern LBT designs. But then again, it boils down to preference.

so Whitworth, you know more than half the handgun hunters in the entire world, and they all use LBTs? Yeah, right...

Again, you spew your preference, with no empirical evidence to back it. Sorry, guy; you and I both know that most of the handgun hunters around shoot factory, and you can't buy a factory round with an LBT projectile in the case.

Doubless

You know I am a Keith bullet fan [I started this thread...]

But I do think that today, many people that hunt, especially pigs and bigger big game, that reload and use lead bullets, use the LBT style of bullet.

Buffalo Bore, Cor Bon, Garrett, and even Federal Cast Core use LBT style lead bullets...

In fact when you get to the 454, 475, and 500 there are very few Keith style bullets, the cast bullets are all LBT...

Remember, Keith improved on ALL the lead bullets of the day with HIS SWC...

And just maybe the LBT style cast bullet is a better hunting bullet for BIG big game than the Keith...

That does not mean that a couple of "OLD KEITHITES" like you and me can't "get er done" with a Keith SWC...


My thoughts are, for ALL ROUND field use a Keith SWC is the best all round choice...

well said

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Doubless

You know I am a Keith bullet fan [I started this thread...]

But I do think that today, many people that hunt, especially pigs and bigger big game, that reload and use lead bullets, use the LBT style of bullet.

Buffalo Bore, Cor Bon, Garrett, and even Federal Cast Core use LBT style lead bullets...

In fact when you get to the 454, 475, and 500 there are very few Keith style bullets, the cast bullets are all LBT...

Remember, Keith improved on ALL the lead bullets of the day with HIS SWC...

And just maybe the LBT style cast bullet is a better hunting bullet for BIG big game than the Keith...

That does not mean that a couple of "OLD KEITHITES" like you and me can't "get er done" with a Keith SWC...


My thoughts are, for ALL ROUND field use a Keith SWC is the best all round choice...

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
so Whitworth, you know more than half the handgun hunters in the entire world, and they all use LBTs? Yeah, right...

Again, you spew your preference, with no empirical evidence to back it. Sorry, guy; you and I both know that most of the handgun hunters around shoot factory, and you can't buy a factory round with an LBT projectile in the case.

So, Doubless, you know that most handgun hunters are using some variation on the Keith design (probably the most misused moniker for a semi-wadcutter)? Based on what may I ask? Or are you spewing your preference? Sorry guy, but if you prefer the old Keith-style bullets, no one is stopping you from using them. Nothing wrong with your choice, but it is your choice. I used "Keith-syle" bullets for years, particularly when I started reloading, but have since moved in to LBT-land. Again, nothing wrong with them, but I believe there are better choice -- IMHO.

As 450 pointed out, the LBT designs are what you usually get when you buy hardcast, flat-nosed hunting loads in handgun calibers nowadays, from the aforementioned manufacturers of ammo. And if you actually purchase bullets for the bigger calibers (.45, .475, .500, .510) particularly from the manufacturers of hardcast bullets (like Beartooth, Cast Performace, Montana Bullet Works, etc.), the LBT designs are the most common available. I suggest doing a little research.

No need to get hot under the collar, we are just discussing.

I have been sent a huge amount of test boolits over the years and that includes every caliber, .357, .44, .45, .475 and 45-70.
Nice boolits are they not? Hollow points and solids, good lube and perfection in casting.
Yet all I can get is basic hunting accuracy from any of them which puts them at minute of deer to 100 yards.
Moving out to 400 and 500 yards and they are hit and miss, lots of dust thrown up around a ram with a few hits but no telling where on the ram they will hit, leg, tail, head, etc.
This is a clone of the 429421 HP, a 400 gr .475 and a 375 gr .475 HP. All great for 25 and 50 yard plinking or deer hunting but if I want to keep ALL shots on a 500 meter ram, I will use a different boolit.

By the way, Babore over on Cast Boolits makes one of the best molds going at a reasonable price. His casting is nothing but perfection too.
If you want a mold for any kind of boolit, he will make it and it will be the diameter you need.
Bruce has sent me LBT style boolits and RNFP boolits that have poked one ragged hole groups at 50 yards.

OK, I stand corrected... I have never seen a factory load from any of the manufacturers NE 450 lists. They are not available where I live (and I don't buy factory). But they are out there, as I have now been told.

I wasn't hot at all; I am just of the firm opinion that there is truly little new under the sun. But that is just an opinion, and it is worth exactly what you paid for it...

I have LBT moulds for both my 44 Mag and my .41 Mag; the 411-250 WFN is still in the original wrap. I haven't had the time to go to the range and try either of them yet. I will let you all know, and if I need to eat crow, I have ketchup to make it more palatable.

LOL, Doubless, you're a good sport!

yes and no. I will concede that there is some poor swcs out there for long range flight but ive got at least one swc design in every caliber that will shoot as well as anything at 500 yards. No doubt if a guy can only buy one mold an lfn is going to give your a better chance at getting a good long range bullet but you certainly cant claim that all lfns outshoot all swcs at long range. Ive put thousands of long range rounds down long range and know it just isnt so. As a matter of fact if you are talking light to middle weight bullets in a caliber like a 250 44 the gap closes even more as ive seen some lfns in that range that didnt fly well and one of the most accurate long range lighter bullets in my guns is the rcbs 240swcgc. When you get into the 45 colt is where the trouble really is. Ive yet to find a 250 grain keith that flys real well and it rare to find a 260 grain or ligher lfn that does either. Anymore i wont even bother with a mold for the 45 colt that isnt at least 280 grain. Even the 270saa a mold that everyone brags on is an absoulute dud in my book. It doesnt fly for squat at long range and is tough to get to shoot well even at short range in most guns. Just an expample of someone designing a mold that has a name and a bunch of buddys to brag on it to make it famous. If you want a good swc in 45 start your shopping at 300 grain or if it is an lfn start it at 280.

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I have been sent a huge amount of test boolits over the years and that includes every caliber, .357, .44, .45, .475 and 45-70.
Nice boolits are they not? Hollow points and solids, good lube and perfection in casting.
Yet all I can get is basic hunting accuracy from any of them which puts them at minute of deer to 100 yards.
Moving out to 400 and 500 yards and they are hit and miss, lots of dust thrown up around a ram with a few hits but no telling where on the ram they will hit, leg, tail, head, etc.
This is a clone of the 429421 HP, a 400 gr .475 and a 375 gr .475 HP. All great for 25 and 50 yard plinking or deer hunting but if I want to keep ALL shots on a 500 meter ram, I will use a different boolit.

ps is that TUMBLE LUBE ON YOUR BULLETS!

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
I have been sent a huge amount of test boolits over the years and that includes every caliber, .357, .44, .45, .475 and 45-70.
Nice boolits are they not? Hollow points and solids, good lube and perfection in casting.
Yet all I can get is basic hunting accuracy from any of them which puts them at minute of deer to 100 yards.
Moving out to 400 and 500 yards and they are hit and miss, lots of dust thrown up around a ram with a few hits but no telling where on the ram they will hit, leg, tail, head, etc.
This is a clone of the 429421 HP, a 400 gr .475 and a 375 gr .475 HP. All great for 25 and 50 yard plinking or deer hunting but if I want to keep ALL shots on a 500 meter ram, I will use a different boolit.

No, that is Felix lube. I don't wipe my boolits and I run them through a Lee die that only removes excess lube. The grooves are full of lube.
The left one was sent lubed with LBT soft, a good lube too.
Alox is only good for under fenders!
How can you tell I like a lot of lube?
You have done a good job of explaining the SWC, just not worth the trouble or expense of buying a mold. I HAVE tried over 300 gr SWC's from my .45, they still don't shoot good enough.
I make my own molds and will not waste my time and blocks on a SWC. It is SOOOOO easy to just expand the nose to get rid of the silly shoulder. It is like a hand with no thumb, looks OK but can't do anything.
Is it just the name of "KEITH" that makes it popular. Is it the look of a loaded round?
As great as Elmer was, he was just trying to keep a shoulder to cut nice holes in paper yet make a better boolit for hunting. He did not go far enough, there was too much rub off from shooting a full WC with .38's for close range target scoring.
Lloyd, I feel you keep swinging farther and farther away from a Keith but just will not bring yourself to admit it yet. Put the expensive molds that don't shoot in the back of a drawer, there is no saving them. I have a pile that are not good---it's OK, really, it is OK. You will sell a bad gun in an instant but will hang on to a poor boolit design like a bulldog.
Talking about dogs, I have a little blond Pekingnese that I walk on a leash in the yard. We were out last night and it was windy so the barn door was banging. We were by the house and I told her I have to shut the barn door. She started off right away pulling me right to the door. I was amazed, never seen anything like it. I shut the door and told her "let's go in the house" and she led me back to the garage.
I bet she could pick a better boolit!