Question what are your thoughts on using the +P+ in a Smith 629 trail boss??? I was looking at some the other the day they are loaded with 340gr cast bullets at 1400 plus feet per second... The only thing I have ever shot out of a 44 mag was the good ol 250-255 Keith bullets. From the looks it will probably have one hell of a kick but will the 629 take this type of abuse...

Thanks John

taken strait form bufflao bores site:

This new load is designed for only certain revolvers that have the cylinder length to handle it. They are as follows. Ruger Red Hawk, Ruger Super Red Hawk, Ruger Super Blackhawk or Vaquero, Freedom Arms Model 83, Taurus Raging Bull and Dan Wesson Revolvers. Suitable rifles include T/C Encore, "modified" Marlin 1894, Winchester 1894, any rifle with a falling block action and the Handi Rifle.

i would say if they fit in the cylinder that a small amount wouldnt kill it. but i know the cylinders are shorter on the 629's compared with the redhawks and super-redhawks. email buffalo bore on the overall lenght of the round before to make sure it will fit

You could use them sparingly. A steady diet would eventually do damage, but every now and again you'll be okay. I now use a 277 grain bullet in one of my Model 29s at right about 1,300 fps and it is about as stiff a load that I will feed it a steady diet of.

No way would I shoot the +P+ in my model 29's. Loads of this nature are too abusive for the delicate M-29s IMHO

The S&W can take the pressure but due to it's design, inertia of some parts will beat it up. The stronger the recoil the more damage will be done.
But realise most loads do not use much more pressure, just heavier bullets and the increased recoil they bring.

I'd stay away from it myself. The trail boss is somewhat lacking weight to soak up some of the recoil generated by those rounds.

I recommend you try a box of Federal Castcore 300 gr loads before the Buffalo Bore +P+ This will do two things for you. It might cure you of your desire to shoot fast heavies from a N-frame snubby. More importantly it will tell you if you have enough front sight to zero it. My Mtn Gun has a four inch tube and the Castcore strikes point of aim a seven yard with the rear sight cranked all the way to the bottom; any further out it's well on its way to a low earth orbit. The faster and heavier BB load may strike too high to zero with the factory sights. $0.02

nordrseta, you present a very valid point..

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:
I recommend you try a box of Federal Castcore 300 gr loads before the Buffalo Bore +P+ This will do two things for you. It might cure you of your desire to shoot fast heavies from a N-frame snubby. More importantly it will tell you if you have enough front sight to zero it. My Mtn Gun has a four inch tube and the Castcore strikes point of aim a seven yard with the rear sight cranked all the way to the bottom; any further out it's well on its way to a low earth orbit. The faster and heavier BB load may strike too high to zero with the factory sights. $0.02

I would have to agree.

I am with JWP on this one.

I do not think they will fit in the cylinder of the S&W 44 Mags.

I have shot Garretts "regular" 44 Mag ammo [he loads stuff too long for the S&W made for the BIG 44 Mgs as well], and find it perfect.

I only shot the "Low Recoil" Keith 44 Mag Loads from Buffalo Bore, but they are very good as well. I have shot many of their 475 Linebaugh Loads, he makes good stuff.


I have shot a log of the Federal 300 gr Cast Core.
The Federal Cast Core 44 Mag ammo is very good as well. Its bullets are not as hard/tough as the Garretts, but it is still a very good load.

Strange as it may seem the Federal Cast Cre shoots very good in my Winchester 44 Mag Trapper.

If I had not tried it I would not have believed it.

I think they'll fit physically. bfrshooter has an LFN that is 330 grains and if fits my Model 29s well -- but they'll loosen 'em up in short order (obviously a steady diet)!! I think the recommendation of the Remington Castcores is sound advice.

Remington Cast Cores? Don't you mean Federal Cast Cores?

Remington Cast Core, don't you mean Federal Cast Core?

Oops, I guess you are right.

Thanks for the help guys will try to track down soem og the federal stuff... What are guys thoughts on using a 250-255 Kieth bullet for Brown Bear defense... Loaded around 1200-1300 f.p.s... Thanks again.

323

I would not be afraid to use that combination.

The Buffalo "Low Recoil" Keith load would work IMHO, if you do not reload.

He designed this load for the lighter 44 Mags including the S&W with the Scandium frame.

I'm sure they would work, placed well (isn't this always the case?), but I personally would prefer a heavier bullet -- this doesn't mean that you need to drive it as fast as possible.

The Buffalo Bore 340 +P+ is my favorite load in my SRH Alaskan but that is the only revolver I'll shoot it in, at least on a regular basis. I don't even like to shoot it much in my Ruger SBH as extraction can be a little sticky and recoil is ferocious, like a lightweight .454. This load is actually more powerful than many .454 loads and, unless I'm mistaken, it's more powerful than ANY of BB's .454 loads!!! That is saying something. I'll check on that though just to see but Buffalo Bore doesn't recommend this load in S&W revolvers. They are for the SRH, SBH,Dan Wesson, Taurus RB, and FA's revolvers only...I believe that's it. Besides pressure, they may be too long also. They will BARELY and I MEAN BARELY fit in my Ruger SBH's. If that bullet jumps at all during recoil, it'll tie up the cylinder. It and Garrett's 330 gr load really need to be chambered in the .44's with longer cyllinders like the Taurus RB, Ruger's RH & SRH, and DAN Wesson.

I think the best powerful hc factory load for the S&W 29/629 and Ruger SBH is Garrett's full power 310 grainer. It will do anything that needs doing in a .44 Magnum. It's recoil is stiff but well below BB's +P+ 340 and has been very accurate in every .44 I've shot it in. I doubt one cyllinder full of 340's will hurt your S&W but it just might! Why take the risk, especially since Buffalo Bore advises against it. The S&W 29's are wonderful, beautiful, and accurate revolvers but they just aren't made to endure these kind of loads. That BB 340 is a friggin' beast and is nothing like the other "heavy" .44's. It kicks noticeably more than any of them, even Garrett's 330 imop. APPROACH WITH CAUTION!!!

BTW- Yes, there is just ONE Buffalo Bore .454 load that exceeds the .44 Mag 340 gr +P+.

.454 325 gr = 1678 fpe vs .44 +P+ 340 = 1649 fpe

Like I said, this .44 load is truly wicked.

it is a hell of a load, but it sure as hell an absolute max load. bb casull loads are anything but max. my max casull loads get me well over 2000fpe, in fact the top load, i call my laser beam comes in at 2400 fpe.

quote:

Originally posted by srshooter:
BTW- Yes, there is just ONE Buffalo Bore .454 load that exceeds the .44 Mag 340 gr +P+.

.454 325 gr = 1678 fpe vs .44 +P+ 340 = 1649 fpe

Like I said, this .44 load is truly wicked.

Exceeds how? I'll take the bigger caliber my self. Hell those loads have more ME than my .475 -- they must be more powerful!

A heavy, 44 caliber projectile is still a 44 cailber projectile no matter how much you want it to be larger..

well, i'm still not convinced the extra diameter as slight as it is will make much difference. the bb and garrett loads have also proven themselves on absolutely every thing that walks the earth, and that is everything! the advantage of the casull over the 44 is in trajectory. this is just my opinion on my experience.

Use them both on game with the same type & constructed bullets and you will be able to see for your self that the 45 produces a larger diameter wound channel, just like the 475 leaves a larger wound channel than a 45 and so on and so forth.

JWP & Whitworth.....If you guys think I'm implying that the .44 mag is a bigger, badder, and better killer than the .454 and .475, then I've been misunderstood! I don't want the .44 to be bigger than it is either, as I've got much bigger handguns already and I love my .44's for what they are.

My purpose in pointing out the BB 340's energy figures was to merely stress the fact that they are hot and heavy FOR A .44 and should not be used in firearms that aren't built for their kind of abusive recoil and pressures. That said, I do like them in my Alaskan RSR and they add to my revolver's versatility, IMO. I don't rely on muzzle energy figures to determine a cartridge's effectiveness either but in this case the higher muzzle energy of BB's 340 (higher than ALL .44's and some .454's) is indicative of it's higher pressures and recoil and are therefore directly related to the topic at hand..........which is not "name the calibers that hit harder and make bigger wound channels than the .44"....

I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers or to imply that the .44 is something it's not but this is one stout load and I think it will surprise many when they shoot one for the first time. It sure as hell got my attention and I was shooting a .454 and a .500 S&W on the same day when I first tried it. Also, IT MAY BE DANGEROUS TO SHOOT IT OUT OF A S&W 29. I don't know because I haven't and won't try it!!!

Buffalo Bore's .454 loads are a bit on the moderate side but are still heavy loads to most handgunners. These Buffalo Bore +P+ 340's are in THAT class, but the .454 and .475 CAN GET MUCH HEAVIER AND THE WOUND CHANNELS GET BIGGER TOO....NO DOUBT!!!



Everyone has a different opinion but I don't

quote:

Originally posted by tradmark:
well, i'm still not convinced the extra diameter as slight as it is will make much difference. the bb and garrett loads have also proven themselves on absolutely every thing that walks the earth, and that is everything! the advantage of the casull over the 44 is in trajectory. this is just my opinion on my experience.

I agree. I've shot game with the .44, .45 LC, .454, and .500 S&W.....using similar bullets......and while there IS a difference, there's nothing dramatic that happens when you go from .429" to .452" bullets. It's a gradual improvement in wound channel size that directly correlates with the gradual increase in bore size. I've yet to find a magic caliber that kills out of proportion to it's bore size and TKO value but some folks get very defensive if they feel their "baby" or "pet cartridge" is being called into question. We all love our guns and we all have our favorites but there's certainly no magic bore size....at least none that I've found.

Let us all know if you guys find one!

It's all in good fun!

The biggest hole I can make is the bullet I choose.

I choose my bullets to my game as well, I know I don't need a 500 Mag to kill deer, so my 45 Colt with a 255 or 300 gr. hard cast bullet gets the call, but there may be times I just feel like using a bigger bore handgun even on deer.
If I am after black bear, I want to put a big hole in them, so if I have to track it, the big holes will allow a lot of blood to flow, smaller holes get clogged with fat and also smaller holes allow for the hair of the bear to soak up a lot of the blood.

I have taken a lot of deer and hogs with a 44 Mag and hard cast bullets. I know the 44 Mag is a great round, saying that, I no longer own a 44 Mag. My smallest handgun for hunting is a 45 Colt.

And to the original poster, I would not use the Buffalo Bore +P+ in your Smith 629. A steady diet of these bullets could damage your gun.

jwp, i truly love how nearly every reply you throw out there on my posts imply i haven't used these rounds on game. i own all of them and i've got as good of access as one can have to a steady diet of large hogs, and as i've stated before i've used them on numerous other game animals. it's like you think you're mr. miyagi and we're all your little daniel-sons. not quite in reality though.

Sorry that you take it that way. In my experience the wound channel is larger as the caliber increases with wide flat point hard cast bullets and when I read that one doesn't see the difference I am amazed that's all

well, i don't mean to take it in a bad way, i just haven't seen a real life different b/w the above calibers and i've seen bigger wound channels with more energy and this is typically easy to quantify with ballistic gel but that doesn't mean there's a real difference as far as how fast the game falls. when you look at the size of the bullets of any of these pistols next to the game animals we shoot then look at the real difference next to an animal and i just can't see the difference.


to see a difference i have to get larger than my 375 hh. the 460 weatherby with barnes that expand to around an inch make a difference but i fail to see the difference b/w running 5 yards and 10..........but that's why we have so many choices and each to his own. each one of these calibers has it's own advantage.

other than trajectory i don't see the SW500 having any real killing advantage over a WE500 or a 500 linebaugh. i also don't feel there's any situationa a 500 linebaugh has any advantage over a 475 linebaugh for that matter. i sure don't feel the 50ae has anything over a 454 or a 475 linebaugh despite it's insignificantly larger diameter.

323

Back to more in line with your original question.

The Trail Boss is a short barreled 44 Mag. I shot one a few weeks ago in Idaho, one of my buddies had one. I liked it, it shot real well.

I am assuming that you wnat it for animal, which ususlly means bear, protection.

I use a S&W 44 MAG for that as well, mine being a 4" usually a Mountain Gun.

There is a difference between hunting bear and protecting youself from bear IMHO.

I have no doubt that my 475 FA is a better bear hunting gun than my 44 Mag.

However I think my 44 Mag, and your 44 Mag, is a much better bear protetion gun.

I want a bear protection gun that I can shoot with ONE hand, EITHER, hand, from an awkward wrist angle, with out breaking my wrist or hitting me in the face.

I also want a load that can shoot into a bears skull, break big bones and penetrate deep into the body if I miss the head.

I also want to be able to reload fairly fast incase I have just slowed him down with the first 6, or i run into a pack of wolves or a band of Banjo Pickers.

IMHO a S&W 44 Mag is the best choice, everything considered.

I see a 240/250 Keith Wadcutter as a starting base. Federal 300gr Cast Core is a good load, Randy Garrett told me so himself.
Any of the Buffalo Bore heavy bulleted cast loads that Tim Sundles [I have talked to him in person, I use his loads in my 475 FA] says is OK for a S&W will work as well.
Garretts lead bullets seem to be the hardest so I personally rate them the best.

Also if there is any small game suitable for the pot, or you are hunting in smake country, then get some Speer 44 Shotshells. They work great. On my TX deer lease my wife and i always carry 2 Speer shotshells up first followed by regular bulleted loads.

You will probably find that the Federal 300gr Cast Core loads are actually more plesant to shoot than the full power 240gr factory loads.

IMHO any loads that kick harder than the loads I have recommended are just too much of a good thing IMHO for protection.

If I was to hunt brown bear with my 475 FA I would still carry my S&W 44 Mag for "protection".

the buffalo bore reduced recoil, 250 gr loads are made exactly for your situation. they are very powerful and will penetrate any bear skull alive, and don't recoil so hard they leave you no follow up shots if a fast 2nd shot is required. try them out, i use them in my 329 titanium exactly for that situation and black bears in NM. it's what's on my hip when bowhunting.

I agree with N E 450 No2, the Federal Cast Core 300 grain would be an excelent choice for the 44 Mag. Alot of penetration without a lot of recoil. When Bear is mentioned I think of worst case and the is a big Grizz

I shot some of the Buffalo Bore 250 gr. Keith "reduced recoil" loads a few weeks ago.

While they might be "reduced Recoil" compared to his other loads, they are not "wimp" loads at all.

I imagine they would shoot through the head of a T-Rex.

To be perfectly honest here, I have seen a difference in the way these cartridges kill. Maybe I am just a better observer than some, but the bigger bore certainly makes a difference all things being equal (i.e.: loaded with heavy for caliber cast flat-points). No reason to get bent....... I'll take the bigger hole every time........

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
No reason to get bent....... I'll take the bigger hole every time........

Me too...

i have to agree too. I love the 44 mag its my favorite round but bottom line a 475 or 500 will drop animals faster for the most part. You might find an exception along the way but if i look at all of my hunting experience with cast bullets in handguns bigger is better.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
I shot some of the Buffalo Bore 250 gr. Keith "reduced recoil" loads a few weeks ago.

While they might be "reduced Recoil" compared to his other loads, they are not "wimp" loads at all.

I imagine they would shoot through the head of a T-Rex.

323

Well, we have strayed quite far away from your original question, but I think it has been answered.

No doubt, assuming you have adequate penetration
A bigger hole is better, whether caused by a bigger diameter lead bullet or an expanding bullet. The key is adequate penetration.

I still would not want to use one of the "Super Revolvers" for a PROTECTION gun. Just too much recoil to shoot from some of the awkward positions you might find yourself in.

323
Once upon a time, in the intrest of science I did a little test. I shot a cow elks head with a Factory Federal 240gr HP. I shot a second cow elk head with a hard cast Keith [linotype @240gr] with either 21 or 22gr of [old] 2400.
The HP did not make it through, the cast bullet did no problem.

This was before the days when 300gr bullets were being used in the 44.

I would definately use a hard cast bullet in your 44 for anytype of animal protection.

Thanks guys for the help... My thinking on getting this 44mag was that folks have been using it for 50 plus yrs for Bear protection and it seemed fine for this until the 475, 454, 500, 460 showed and it became inadequate... Good little read about this past weekend on the Kenai about a guy who shot a Grizzly sow two times with his 44 mag using 300gr bullets didn't kill her but he stopped the charge F&G went and finished her off and her cubs... That's all I need is to stop a charge ie kill it or put a hurting on it where it will go the opposite direction.

John

very likely the shot wasn't in the vitals and no pistol nor rifle is gonna kill not hitting the vitals. if he had, F&G wouldn't be following anything "living" up. most of the people that get in these once in a lifetime charge experiences and feel they need a larger caliber didn't hit the vitals, let alone the cns and since it is unlikely for them to ever get in that situation again they never see that the larger caliber wouldn't at all do any better if shot in a non vital area.