hey guys,

I've decided to get a pistol to pack with me when hunting. I want a little more punch that a 9mm so my three choices in caliber are 45 ACP 10mm and 44. Mainly in the Glock or Colt frame, but also looking at the witness.

Looking hard at the 10mm anyone with any exp with this round as a hunting round? also I dont want to spend alot, about 500 tops so which would be the best bet for a good gun that will last a long time?

45 ACP is too small, it's okay from 10 yds or closer, 10mm is a lot better, better yet the 44 mag. I would go as big as you can get. Nothing smaller than a 44 mag. If you have a chioce that is. I have a 45 ACP, that's my protection around the house, when I get in the woods, it's the 44 mag I pack. I never leave home without one or the other.

I could go with the 44, but I'm not a fan of wheelguns and with stiff loads the 44 is right at my max for accurate shots w/ recoil.

As you have said its for back up,meaning basicly "last ditch" save your ass, I would look at the Glock 10mm and buy the 6" hunting bbl, load it with the hottest solid or FMJ I could find and go from there, you are real close to the 41mag relm.

I use both a Delta Elite and a Gov't model. If you could get the conversion to the 45 Super best of both worlds, if not a good 10mm is hard to beat. Check around see if you can find the orginal Norma loading of a 200gr fmj at 1200fps second would be the Black Talon. There was some listing for hot rodded 250-300gr 45's. If I can find it will let you know but, you will need a heavy recoil spring!

Take a look at the desert eagle 44 mag. It is really pleasant and accurate. I have mine sighted in at 100 yrds. Shoots really good. It's heavy, that's the only draw back, but heavy means less recoil. Just a thought.

while I like the D.E. they seem over priced, and I'm not realy in the market for a club. One of my hunting buddies uses his, he has the light weight version, aluminum pistol grip, W/ steel slide, its nice, but I'd rather have a light pistol.

While a properly customized 1911 in 45ACP is my favorite handgun for field use I prefer a revolver. Especially for animal protection. You may not realize you have an "animal problem" untill the animal is already on top of you. If that happens a semi-auto will probably malfunction when you are fighting for you life trying to shoot the beast off of you.
For this type of work I like a S&W 44 Mag 4".
Even with 300gr bullets you can control the revolver with one hand, and because it is a double action you can keep a tight grip while you pull the trigger. You can also reload the DA Revolver with one hand if necessary, with or without the use of speed loaders.
I have found the best way to carry the revolver is in a DeSantis cross draw holster.

Dark Paladin,

Here in Michigan the 10mm makes a great hunting and back up pistol. I was able to take a big doe at 40 paces with my S&W 1006, she only made it 20 yards before piling up. However we do not have to worry about brown bears here like you do in Alaska,so I think a good revolver chambered for 44 mag would be a better choice.

Good luck with your search.

While bears are a threat, they are over played, what I am looking for is a gun that can IF I need it to kill a bear, but make a good entry into the handgun hunting field and be a CCW when the time comes.

Practicing IPSC with a S&W 610 Classic after years with a Bren Ten and a Colt Delta , I used a timer when shooting bowling pins with a DE , that's the worst choice.
I could shoot 3 rounds with my 629 Classic 44 mag or 4 rounds with my 610 Classic 10 mm using the same time to shoot only 2 rounds with the DE 44 because of the time it needs to extract and go back into battery...
my average split time is 0.20 / 0.25 sec with a wheelgun, hitting the bowling pins, I am not talking about spraying the side of a hill..

Dark Paladin

OK then, I guess a full size revolver is out of the question, because it's really to large to conceal. Your only other options might be a smaller framed 44 mag. or the 10mm auto.
The 10mm Glock is a good choice, however if you can find one, the S&W 1006 is a gem. Probably easier to conceal too.

Yea, I was looking more towards the witness, or Colt, not a fan of S&W, no real reason, the gun just does not appeal to me, on the other hand, I dont like glocks, no saftey is a bad design. I know a few people who have either had a glock blow the slide off, or accidentaly fire it putting it into his holster, was a cop, pulled gun to cover a suspect had his finger on the inside of the trigger guard, and put it back into his holster, and it pushed his finger into the trigger, lucky for him it missed his leg and just got some dirt.

DP,
I have TWO eea witness, compact, wonder finish in 10mm. my wife own's one... and if i tried to sell that one, i would merely be gutshot!!

I do have one for sale... I've hunted and target shot with both... great autos for the job

and, in a pinch, both will shoot 40sw perfectly well... a KNOWN rather than a hoped, in these two.

jeffe

DP
You do not always have to shoot full power loads in your 44, and you might find the Speer shotshells very handy on ptarmigan and other small game for the pot.

My department used to issue the S&W 1006 and we found that it knocked road damaged deer down better than our previous .357's or other department's .45acp or 9mm. It gets embarassing when called upon to dispatch an injured bambi that's up on adrenlin (sp?) and it takes several rounds, the 10 using Silvertips or a load with XTP's usually took one shot. The other departments envied us . The Colt Delta I shot seemed quite reliable and accurate.

That being said, I lucked upon a deal on a S&W Mountain Gun a while back and it's rapidly becoming my favorite pistol. Loaded with 240gr lswc and 10.0gr Unique for @1,100fps from the 4" bbl it's controlable and I don't do badly on a friend's set of Ram targets at 200yds and it can be concealed IWB.

You'll not go wrong with either caliber.

Rick

I think you will get off a faster and more decisive second shot with your rifle than you could achieve by ditching your main weapon and drawing your sidearm. That said, I'd rather have a grizzly bear on me that's bleeding from a 44 Magnum caliber hole rather than one from a 10 mm.

H. C.

ok, well in any case. I wouldnt use the pistol unless the bear is already on top of me so using my rifle is out of the question, but because of the .44's recoil I could put 2-3 shots into the bear with a decent semi auto 10mm to ever 1 shot with the revolver, and I would rather have a bear with 3 10mm in him than 1 44 round... the hunting I would do with the gun is mainly coyote or wolf at REALY close range, like 10 ft, or maybe a deer in the lower 48

Dark Paladin,

Since you live in AK I am assuming that you're bear are the grizzly/coastal brown bear.

In VA, the .45 ACP is "marginal" for big game due to the legal limit on energy levels of 300 ft lbs. The 10mm has enough energy to be legal (here in VA) and yet comes in a platform small enough to be concealable.

Given that and your desire to carry concealed, I'd recommend the Delta Elite. I think that the cost would be a bit over $500. It is here (used). The cartridge does do fairly well on deer.

I think though, that if you need to use it on bear and the bear will be close your only option is a head shot. There's been lots written and many have their opinions on the subject.

As for me I've carried sidearms when hunting. From .22s to .44 Mags, not as backups but as alternatives to the main gun. E.g., I've carried my 4" M629 when grouse hunting, just in case I see a legal bear or a turkey out too far for the shotgun and carried a .22 for squirrels which would be a welcome dinner as the deer hunting day comes to an end.

Best of luck and good shooting.

I have carried both the 45 ACP and the 10 mm as hunting backups. I also have shot a deer with the 45, did not run at all - just dropped dead after about 10 seconds. This past year I carried a Glock model 20 as a backup in a FOBUS holster, this was great - it is nice and light and does not get in the way, much better to carry than my Colt 1991A1. In your case you said you would potentially carry this as a CCW - then go with the smaller model 29 Glock, light weight, lots of power, and easy to conceal.

Upon further review, I'm starting to think that the CZ design is among the best ever, especially for a multi-role pistol. Therefore, I'd look long and hard at the EAA Witness in 10mm. I think I'll be getting one when I get back home.

Alaska bear guide Phil Shoemaker opined on this subject recently. He considers multi-shot capability in a handgun (and assuming hard bullets that penetrate) more important than a single sledgehammer blow.

Under pressure the first shot might go astray.

While he carries a .44mag with loads he can manage, his daughter carries a .357 with hard cast SWC's that have proven capable of penetrating adequately.

[ 07-25-2003, 22:55: Message edited by: BigIron ]

DP if you get a chance check out the new Dan Wesson Razorback in 10mm. I saw and handled one today,didn't know they made wanted to get one but I'll let my wife get it for my B-day next week.

I've got a Dan Wesson Razorback 10mm. Love the thing. My goal is to take a razorback with a Razorback. So far I've put 600 rounds of factory to break it in and no issues yet. I've heard of some problems with others but DW always tries to make it right. I'm working on some hunting loads using the 200 grain Hornady XTP bullets. That should do the trick on hogs.

If you can find it get some of the orginal Norma full power load, that should do the trick. I have some of the older load data for the real 10mm . Not this new under power stuff let me know if you need the info.

I'm a big fan of the .44 and .45 DA revolvers but since you aren't, have you considered the .44 Automag or the Wildey pistols? The Automag is a slender little thing and the Wildey is good because you can get it in .475 caliber.

If a brown bear latches on to you, you're probably going to die unless he's content to just rough you up and leave. A hunting partner with a rifle is much better than a handgun.

Paul

I agree, and I never hunt alone for that reason, yea I would LOVE an auto mag, but I cant hack that kinda cash for a hand gun, I WILL own a automag later, but right now I just cant drop that kinda cash into one

The only guy I know with lots of expereince with handguns on black bears is JJHack. He did an article for a major magazine on handgun cartriages for black bear. In fact, I sent him a sample 10mm round for the article.
He says the .45 ACP doesn't cut it if I remember right. The 10mm does. He's seen both work enough to say so. The .44 Magnum is much better with almost any factory load.
I own and hunt with all three, but I don't go for a backup gun as a rule. The exception is when I'm bird hunting during big game season. I have carried both my 1006 Smith and my M29 .44. I can shoot the .44 better, so I prefer it.
I haven't used a Witness, so I can't comment on them. I've shot lots of Glocks, lots of Colts and own the 1006 Smith. The 1006 is handles recoil much better than any of the Colts. They can be very accurate. I have a load for mine that puts three in 3/4 of an inch @ 25 yds.
I know of no 10mm that will last as long as a 1911 in .45 ACP. Not even close. They are a hot, hard on guns round. I'm told that 4-5000 rds through my Smith and it is done. It can't be rebuilt.
Another thing is they go critical fast when handloaded. The original Norma ammo was often loaded too hot.
They do offer great performance in a small, compact package. I really like mine. E

Low cost solution: Ruger blackhawk 4&5/8s bbl with big rubber grips and 30,000 CUP handloads. Cost: $325 new.

Mine drives 365 gr LGCs 1100 fps with Lil'gun, and that will do the job. There just arn't any 44 Mags in this size and weight category, and the 30,000 CUP Colt matches it for power.

If you like the 10MM, be sure to try H-Longshot with 200 gr bullets @ 1200 fps.

By the way the 45 Ruger BH shoots these 10MM 200s at 1600 fps with a .452 muzzle loader sabot and Longshot, but that's a deer load.

[ 08-22-2003, 02:52: Message edited by: Sabot ]

I got the S&W 610 revolver..wouldn't use it as a back-up for bear. I do like the gun..very accurate with 200gr XTP's and 175gr. wheel weight hardcast.

I've been using an EAA Witness Compact in 10mm for the last 3-4 years as a hunting sidearm and have killed two wild hogs with it.

One was 140lbs and the other was 132lbs.

It blew through both like a freight train and expanded well.

I use the 180gr XTP with a "max" book load of Blue Dot. No need to use "Norma loads"... They're way over the top and unnecessary plus will cause undue wear on your pistol but the Witness will handle them if you feel compelled to do it.

I consider the 10mm completely adequate for whitetail also.

For brown bears I'd get a 629 with a 5" barrel and shoot 300gr hard cast bullets at about 1100fps but the 10mm would do in a pinch with 200gr XTP's.

btw... For hunting I use a Bianchi shoulder holster and carry inside of an partially unzipped jacket but that might not be legal where you hunt and/or you might need a concealed carry permit.

That carry keeps holster leather "creaking noises" muffled and doesn't impede a fairly fast draw not to mention keeping the gun clean and I can make my way through thick brush very easily without feeling that I'm "dragging my gun along".

The EAA Witness Compact really is an excellent choice for a gun to bet your life on. They are as close to flawless as a sidearm can get and they're quite accurate too. Mine has NEVER malfunctioned and I have about a thousand rounds through it.

I've bought and sold a LOT of handguns and have fired thousands of them and my Witness is here to stay.

btw... The 10mm round is excellent for personal defense too and I don't think theres another cartridge that's better for defense. It has fantastic killing power and I just wish I had adjustable night sights on mine.

hint: I carry mine with one in the chamber ALL the time but have the safety on. I have trained myself to push the safety off as I draw and then can either double action reflexively shoot or deliberately draw the hammer back and single action shoot.

btw, I love Glocks but prefer the safety setup of my Witness when crawling through brush and in and out of tree stands.

$bob$

Obviously, the Glock 10 mm is your first choice because you like it. Personal preferrence and confidence play a big role in self defense, from bears or humans. I would have said the 4 5/8" .45 Colt Blackhawk would be close to ideal as a field carry piece, if you are good at single action. I would pick the .44 Magnum 4" S&W Mountain Revolver. I carry my .44 Spl Model 24 here in Texas every day under a light vest. In Alaska, you have more clothing options, a little bulkier, a little longer, without being uncomfortable. I use a Kramer inside the waist band leather holster. The .44 Magnum will be heavier than the 10 MM, but has a couple of advantages, one, reduced loads for practice, and shot shells for small game. I carry a plastic "ammo wallet" in my back pack if woods bumming, with 210 grain JHPs, shot shells, and heavy cast bullet hunting loads in reserve. In town, I use Cor-Bon light JHPs for self defense, out where big animals roam, I switch to fast 240 grain loads "down south" in the lower 48, and heavier stuff in your area. Trouble is, I don't spend enough time in Alaska. I don't know if there are multiple spring kits for Glock pistols, but I have set up a second Colt 1911 stainless for hot +P 230 grain flat point Hornady bullets. It feels close to my carry Kimber, both with 5" barrels and can kill a horse, black bear, or whatever easily. Two war stories. A friend in Georgia tells me a local police officer, his neighbor, killed a pretty good size wild hog at close range, on a "wild animal in the yard" call, with a 10 MM with winchester silvertips. Result: one very dead, formally mad pig. Second story. My cousin, while living in Alaska killed a cow moose in self defense. Frist 200 grain JHP (Speer "flying ashtray") bounced off the cow's skull and landed on his friend's front poarch, fully expanded, but a non-penetrator. The remaining 7 rounds of ball 230 grain went into her neck killing her. He said he thought of the neck because of the easily reached structures there, spinous prosess, major arteries and so on. A non-deformable 10 mm or .45 ACP won't transmit much shock, but will penetrate. I guess my bottom line is, either compromise with loads, one load won't do everything, or have multiple pistols, or one revolver and hope you guess right as to the load for the occasion. I personally use one soft point first in the chamber and the rest "solids" for those tough targets. The wear and tear issue on a 10 mm isn't something I can adress, but I've cracked frames on a .45 ACP with thousands of rounds of "regular" practice ammo. I buy them to shoot, so buy two 10 MM Glocks and don't look back. lol

[ 10-12-2003, 07:32: Message edited by: Carson ]

I posted this on another board www.outdoorsdirectory.com/akforum/akhunting_message.php?id=7492 , some of the answers are a little surprising.

You can't be from Alaska and talking about a 10mm as a backup gun.....are you!

ABM, I'm not from there,but think it would be a good choice while there.