I've been happily playing with my 4-5/8" SS Ruger NMBH in 45 Colt this summer and it's new LBT 280 gr WFN bullet I cast from WW's. I've settled on 23 gr of H110, thrown via my Harrell's powder meter and the F150 primer. I'm getting 1097 fps with the bullet seated 1.625". This puts the bullet's ogive right up against the cylinder's forcing cones; great for accuracy. I'm using LBT soft blue lube. As I said I was getting 1097 fps with older Starline brass that's probably got 15 firings on it. I wanted to see if I could get my ES and SD lower and a bit more speed so I put together 50 rounds with new, unfired Starline brass from the same batch. I also upped the charge from my nominal 23 gr to 23.5 gr; hoping to top 1100 fps.

Instead the velocity dropped lower than the earlier stated speed to 1078 fps and the ES and SD increased. I thought to myself, same primers, same bullet/lube, loading technique, NEW brass. Could the new brass, being SOFT and not work hardened, not be holding the bullet as tight which might not allow for the pressure to build up equating to slower speeds?

Your thoughts please?

Alan

The new brass, because it has not been worked may be giving you the results you posted. I'd recommend shooting the increased charge through the older brass. Sometimes tipping the powder can a little more does not give the expected results. Also, without velocity data on your older cases when they were new; it's hard to really say. Sounds like you should keep a record as these cases progress through number of firings. Also, from a realistic point of view; 1097 fps is not shabby for that bullet.

There are several problems. First, where does the idea come from that a boolit needs to be so close to the forcing cone? Crimp in the crimp groove and forget about boolit jump, it means nothing.
Next, new brass is NEVER as accurate because case tension will be different for each case.
I had a big laugh over the guy that shot IHMSA and would only use new, virgin brass for each shoot.
I had 50 new cases for my .44 so I loaded them and shot 50 yards. using a spotting scope I plotted each shot and separated the brass according to POI. I had to show how wrong he was. I found 6 or 7 different POI's.
Here is a picture that shows case tension is bad for new brass.

Now my Vaquero has a 7-1/2" barrel and I shoot the 335 gr LBTWLNGC with 21.5 gr of 296, Fed 150 primer and I get 1160 fps.
Anyway, here is a target I shot with my .44 at 200 yards to check drop with a 330 gr boolit. The brass used has been shot at least 40 times. Not sure if other brass was mixed in either, I never keep track.
I see no reason at all to change brass until it starts to split from flaring and crimping but to tell the truth, the only brass that has split for me is new stuff at the first firing. In 53 years of shooting the .44, I have never split brass that I use all the time.

Now about boolit jump. How much worse can you get then this? I need a flashlight to see the boolit nose, yet look at these 50 yard groups! This thing shoots an inch or under at 100 yards.
I call it the Freedom syndrome where the boolit is right at the end of the cylinder so if it moves .001" from recoil, the gun is tied up good and tight.

quote:

Originally posted by GSSP:
I've been happily playing with my 4-5/8" SS Ruger NMBH in 45 Colt this summer and it's new LBT 280 gr WFN bullet I cast from WW's. I've settled on 23 gr of H110, thrown via my Harrell's powder meter and the F150 primer. I'm getting 1097 fps with the bullet seated 1.625". This puts the bullet's ogive right up against the cylinder's forcing cones; great for accuracy. I'm using LBT soft blue lube. As I said I was getting 1097 fps with older Starline brass that's probably got 15 firings on it. I wanted to see if I could get my ES and SD lower and a bit more speed so I put together 50 rounds with new, unfired Starline brass from the same batch. I also upped the charge from my nominal 23 gr to 23.5 gr; hoping to top 1100 fps.

Instead the velocity dropped lower than the earlier stated speed to 1078 fps and the ES and SD increased. I thought to myself, same primers, same bullet/lube, loading technique, NEW brass. Could the new brass, being SOFT and not work hardened, not be holding the bullet as tight which might not allow for the pressure to build up equating to slower speeds?

Your thoughts please?

Alan

A couple thoughts come to mind. The new brass might have more powder capacity than the old brass. Perhaps more likely the new brass hasn't been work hardened from repeat loadings, so the cases don't grip the bullets as snugly, which can lead to H-110 not lighting off as well as with a bullet well gripped by the case. Sometimes increasing powder charges result in lower velocities, I dunno why, but I have seen it. Even the same loads will shoot to different velocities day to day based on ambient temps, and the temp the ammo is before firing.

That said, I don't get wrapped up around what the chrono says regarding es and sd, and trying to chase a few extra fps? What I care about is group sizes, and I'll tweak loads and gladly give up 50 fps to tighten up a group.

quote:

A couple thoughts come to mind. The new brass might have more powder capacity than the old brass. Perhaps more likely the new brass hasn't been work hardened from repeat loadings, so the cases don't grip the bullets as snugly, which can lead to H-110 not lighting off as well as with a bullet well gripped by the case. Sometimes increasing powder charges result in lower velocities, I dunno why, but I have seen it. Even the same loads will shoot to different velocities day to day based on ambient temps, and the temp the ammo is before firing.

That said, I don't get wrapped up around what the chrono says regarding es and sd, and trying to chase a few extra fps? What I care about is group sizes, and I'll tweak loads and gladly give up 50 fps to tighten up a group.

I could not say it any better!

It's my understanding the brass was from the same lot. So case changes in case capacity should not be a problem. I have on occasion seen drops on velocity with small increases in powder charges. Lack of case neck tension is definitely another source of the problem. He may want to try an expanding plug from a set of .44 Mag dies to bell the mouths without expanding the neck to increase neck tension.

Ran out this morning with 20 rounds each of new brass loaded with .5 more (24.3)than before (23.8) and the F150 primer and F155 primer. Temps were a bit higher. It was 58 deg F the other day. Today it was 85 deg F.

Before/58 deg F; 1078 fps, F150
1093 fps, F155

Today/ 85 deg F; 1190 fps, F150
1211 fps, F155

Is H110 temp sensitive? Little? Much? A lot?

Alan

Most powders will change burn rates with temp changes, some can be very bad and it varies with the caliber also.
All of my guns shoot good enough all year with 296 so I never worry about it. There will be a change in group size on any given day but not enough to stop hunting.
The worst I found was 4227 in the .44, as the gun heats or the day gets hotter velocity and pressures sky rocket. I just never wanted to try the stuff in the .45. However it worked great in the .357 max.
Anyway if I shoot 1/2" groups at 50 yards and a few weeks later the best I can get is 1-1/2" it is no cause for concern, I realize it is burn and ignition changes due to weather.
My biggest secret is to work loads for the best accuracy, never change the load--not ever-- and leave the chronograph in the house. You can not find accuracy over a chronograph.
The use of a magnum primer in the .44 and .45 will triple group size for me every time, in every weather condition, however a WLP primer works fine in the .45 and might be good in the .44 as it gets colder out.
One reason is the mag primer has so much force it will push a boolit out of the case before good powder ignition. This will never be the same from shot to shot so every shot starts with a different case capacity depending on how far out a boolit moved.
Even with my hard boolits and very tight neck tension it still happens.
I will not go to the mag primer until the .475 and up. A LP mag primer works like a champ in the 45-70 BFR, beating a LR primer in spades.
Whitworth and I worked with ignition using a .454 with the SR primers and even with the hottest mag primers a starting load of 296 failed to ignite and the boolit was blown out into the bore with no powder burn. Increasing the load to max and to 1/2 gr over max cured the problem and increased accuracy.
I then cut off .460 brass and even a LP standard primer worked fine with every load, the mag LP primer was better.
You must give a lot of thought to primer selection, the .44 and .45 wants a lot of primer heat but low primer pressure. The cases are too small to absorb pressure at the ignition point and is the biggest reason Winchester said to not reduce loads, 296 and all slow ball powders need a lot of heat with low airspace. I think it is the reason for the WLP primer, heat with reduced pressure and even though I like Federal primers, the WLP is a good primer.
The .44 and .45 are really too small for a full mag primer and the .454 is too large for a SR primer, they need a LP mag primer.
I have also tried other dies and found the Hornady dies give me the most consistent accuracy because of good case tension on the boolits. If your gun will not group, take a good look at your dies.
I don't know what else to say except to stop looking for velocity.