Does any one have any comments on the S&W Model 29 Mountain gun? Positive or negitive feedback and does anyone have any pet loads that they would like to share?

I have a M629 4" (not the Mountain Gun) which is eminently shootable. I use 18 gr. 2400 and a hard cast 240 gr. Keith style bullet OR 8 gr. Unique and the Hornady 240 gr. swaged semi-wadcutter. The barrel is lighter on the MG as it is the old style tapered form but it shouldn't be so much weight as to make the recoil that much worse.

Good shooting.

I have had one for several years it is OK but I have a 629 5inch which I much prefer.It is much more shootable and just about as handy and easy to carry.w/regards

I've had a couple of four inch 29's over the years (plus, 3 inch, 6.5 inch, and 6 inch). I find them just about the right combination of portability and power. The mountain gun would be even better as a gun you carried lot's and shot little. Check out the new 329 from S&W, scandium/titanium construction, giving you a 27 ounce 44 revolver. Easy to tote, hard to shoot. Personaly, I prefer the standard 4 inch guns. FWIW - Dan

I have one and I love it. Yes, it does recoil a little more than a regular 29. My standard load is 18.5grs 2400 under a 260gr LFN cast bullet. My hog load is a 21grs H110 under a 280gr WFN.

I have two, I'm gonna sell one of them though. The one I will keep is serial number 00016 so it's clearly an early production gun!

I load 24 grians of 296 with a 240 grain hornady XTP bullet. It's gonna be tough for anythning to walk through 6 of those in the bush. It's recoil is nothing to consider. If you can shoot a 44 mag then this is nothing to worry about. I have shot a lot of Randy Garretts ammo through this gun as well and it's definately a more active load! I would not click off a dozen in an afternoon but 6 of these would ruin the day of any thing getting in their way!

I have shot one clean through a 7 foot black bear from 40 yards in the ass out the neck. Plenty of others have given me the kind of penetration that shows it's no fluke with a Garrett bullet.

The mountain gun carried in a Kramer high ride holster is effertless to pack around. Since I pack with my "pack goats" into many wilderness areas for hunting I need to have a gun when I hike with them. I have already had one killed by a lion, and know another guy who has lost two of his pack goats to lions. A lion bringing down a 200 plus pound pack goat is no effort for them.

Over all the Mountain gun is about the most power you will get in a light weigh packable gun that is still reasonably comfortable and shootable with powerful loads. Mine will group 2" at 25 yards pretty easy. At 50 yards it's OK but not a tack driver with the short sight span. I had Trijicon replace my sights with the Nuke sights. They are now bright and visible in total darkness. I also swapped out the rubber grips for hogue rosewood finger groove it's an excellent pack revolver!

3006ultra
I have been using S&W 44 magnums since 1970. While I have used many loads and bullets over the years you will have a hard time beating the following. A Keith SWC over 8 to 10 grains of Unique for a general purpose,to small game load.
The same bullet over 19 to 22.5 grains of 2400 for everything else. I hear the "new" 2400 is a little faster than original Hercules. For Big Game and Bear Busters I use Garretts Hammerheads, or Federal Cast Core. If you want deep penetration and some expansion the Speer 270gr. Gold Dot SP have done a good job for me. You will probably not get much expansion out of a 4" with 240 HP's but they seem to be a quicker killer of deer size game out of a 6 1/2 inch.
Now about the Mountain Revolver. My wife and I both carry 4" S&W 44 mags whenever we rifle hunt or back pack. If we are not in bear country my wife carrys Keith SWC's over 9.2gr. of Unique, I carry one of the above mentioned full power loads,[which ever strikes my fancy ]. About 2 years ago I bought her a Mountain Revolver because it is noticeably lighter in the holster.I liked it so much that I got me one too . I have shot all the above full power loads in them and have had no problems, they are accurate. If it was going to be my first and only 44 I would probably recommend you to get a 6". But if you are only, or primarily using it for a "holster" gun then the Mountain Revolver is a very good choice, maybe the best.
I think the full power 240gr. loads are more uncomfortable to shoot than the 300gr. Federal Cast Core or the Garretts Hammerheads. The heavy bullets rise up more,but are not as snappy.
Do not forget to get some Speer 44 Shotshells, they work good for small game for the pot, and snakes too.

I've owned a few M-29/629's and the Mountain Gun is my favorite. Mine is very accurate (I even managed to endanger the 200 yd Rams on a friends Sillhoute range.

It's usually fed the 240 lswc / 10.0 gr Unique load for plinking, targets, IDPA and I wouldn't hesitate to use it for close range deer. I've fired some warmer loads and they make the gun a bit less pleasant to shoot, it's accuracy seems to stay the same, mine degrades under the recoil a bit.

If you like big packing guns it's a buyer.

Rick

My 629 Mountain Gun loves the 320 gr. Cast Performance LBT bullet ahead of 19.9 grains of Vihtavuori 110. Chronographs just under 1300 fps and is not uncomfortable to shoot....

Thanks for all of the replys. I am looking foreward to using the load info and working up loads and breaking it in...!

This post was from another web site which I put up a long time ago. I thought it might have some relevence to this topic.

I worked for much of my life in a bear damage management program in Washington state. My job week in and week out seasonally was to provide supplimental feed and to remove problem bears from a 380,000 acre tree farm which was bordered by an enormous wilderness area with a seemingly endless supply of black bears. I am currently the Western editor of bear hunting magazine, and a Professional Hunter in the country of South Africa. This past season in Africa my 19 clients shot and killed 117 big game animals in 8 weeks of hunting. That was just one season!
I mention these things so you realize my experience level with big to "HUGE" game is significant. A person needs a bit of resolution in his experience. One or two animals or even a dozen does not make the averaage guy an expert in all that can happen or go wrong. A real authority in the way bullets perform in living tissue needs to see hundreds of big animals shot to study the results and the reactions. From archery, to shotguns and rifles crossbows, and handguns or Muzzle loaders. I have killed or been involved in the direct harvest of hundreds of bears including Brown and grizzly while guiding in Alaska.

When you read this post which follows Remember I'm not just blowing smoke, I've been there! The .44 magnum with a good load will fold up and kill any black bear alive with ease! I don't know who the fellow was that gave the presentation( a previous post stated a .44 magnum was not enough for a black bear) but my guess is that he is baised in some way against handguns, or has little faith in the average user(most likely). I have shot many dozens if not over a hundred with a 44 magnum and never lost a single one. As far as I'm concerned it's nearly the perfect gun for black bear hunting over bait or for as far as 75 yard shooting, maybe further!

Here is my other post:
I might be able to save you some grief and give you a reliable and proven solution. I have had to kill several hundred bears in my life. Many were not in a very happy mood and quite a few would have had my hide torn off PDQ had it not been they were in a foot snare. My Job as a bear hunting guide and as a wildlife manager for many years gave me insight into some conditions regular folks might only see once in a hundred life-times!

First the .44 magnum is plenty of gun for black bear self defense. Not for brownies or grizzly!

Next we have to consider the difference between hunting bears and stopping or imobilizing bears instantly. There is enough difference between the two that many folks get confused when they talk about the ammunition they are suggesting for the gun your asking about. If I were hunting bears a heavy hard cast bullet would be a fair choice. It leaves two .430 diameter holes and usually enough blood to follow to the trophy. The key part of that phrase is "follow to the trophy" !
You will be following the bear because the heavy hardcast bullets will in every case whistle through at a handgun hunting distance broadside shot. This impact is about the equal to a field tipped arrow. The bear has very little reaction except to hunch up for a brief moment and spring forward running as fast as possible often times covering 100 yards and remaining alive for another 30 seconds to a minute or more. Sometimes requiring a follow up shot.

Now consider the bear who is a threat to you. Broadside is out, and bears do not attack while standing. So you have an animal coming at high speed with his head only inches from the ground. If you shoot at his head while the distance is closing you will hit him in the guts without proper lead. That is not an easy thing to do without significant practice and training. If you have the foresight to concentrate while in a panic and shoot at the ground in front of his head you might make a neck or head shot, feel lucky? If you're using hardcast bullets and miss the spine or brain you're getting hit and knocked silly before you even realize what is going on. It's happened to me so I speak from first hand experience on this.
The heavy hard cast bullets don't disrupt enough tissue to crumple or stall a bear unless a perfect CNS hit is made. The better choice and I say this after trying so many loads and killing so many bears I feel the research is nearly indisputable, is the common 240 grain hollowpoint. I have used many types but having done research with Hornady to develope the XTP bullet in the 80's I feel the XTP is as good as any bullet or better. I have seen nearly every bear hit with a Garrett bullet run a long way unless CNS hits were made. However with a 240 hollowpoint the bears will spin like a top and bite at the wound trying to get the burning "bee" out of there hide. This allows many more shots. I have also seen them fall at impact and roll aound on the ground while bawling their heads off allowing more shots. These bullets rarely exit and tear up so much tissue that the bears really show amazing impact effect when compared to the 300 grain hardcast bullets most folks want for hunting. I would not use a 300 grain hard cast bullet for bears as a first choice. Bears are soft and usually small for such a bullet. Those bullets should be used for really big animals with difficult to break bones like elk moose bison and brown bears. Nothing over 400 pounds really needs bullets with that heavy "zip through" construction that a 300 plus grain hard cast construction offers with the exception of wild hogs which have a very thick heavy gristle plate that can prematurely stop softer hollow point bullets.

The reactions I have seen first hand to dozens if not over 100 bears has given me these feelings, not just a bear here and there with random shot placement. Many of the bears shot while hunting are calm and relaxed, the reaction when they are hit is by a significant margin different then when a bear that is agressive and charging you. When we had bears snared that were hit in the chest with a hardcast bullet they continued to pull on the cable to get at us. When bears were shot with the 220-250 grain hollow points most if not all recoiled back and bit at their wound. They always stopped fighting and realized they had bigger trouble then the human they were attacking. The reaction was much different and very consistant. Consider the difference between hitting a deer with a 375HH solid with 4500 plus FPE and shooting that same deer with a 130 grain soft point from a .270, the bigger bullet hitting the deer will allow him to run quite a distance. The Smaller but very explosive 130 grain bullet with only about 2600 FPE will likely fold up the deer on the spot. This is very much like the 240HP VS the 300HC decision. I for one will always carry 240 grain hollow points in my .44 mag revolver and never worry about having enough stopping power for black bears.

JJHack,

Thanks!

Recono

JJHack,

I hope you are still following this topic. I would really like to congratulate you. I have noticed this issue of "performance creep" for a while now. Once the bullet weight limit was raised to 300+ grains for the 44 (and .45), people went from "now you can" to "now you must" use them. There have been a lot of bad recommendations given on the various forums concerning matching bullet weight and bullet construction to the game being hunted. The same applies to the cartridge selection: .44 is no longer adequate now you must go to .45 Colt or .454 or even bigger.

You are only, perhaps, the second individual with the credentials to keep people from blowing your opinion off to state what you have. I doubt that enough people will pay attention to what you have stated, but we can hope. You have to wonder if those people recommending 300+ grain hard non-expanding bullets for deer because they "want the penetration" ever shot a deer or other soft skinned game.

There is a felolw by the name of Doc Rogers from WV who submits to the Handgun Hunters International newletter that J. D. Jones publishes. His moniker is "The Hitman" and his lifetime take so far on just deer is over 1000. This does not include the various other animals that he hunts. Criters like elk and various African game in much lesser number, of course. He has repeated said exactly what you have stated. Unless you hit bone, hardcast bullets just sail through with minimal immediate effect. Fatal? Yes, but the critters run.

Glad you said what you said, now they can add black bear to that list.

Nathan Detroit

I have shot many whitetails with my S&W 29 and 44mag handloads. Most fell quickly to the 240gr hollowpoints. At some point I moved up to the very potent 300gr HARDCAST lead bullets, thinking that this load would put down deer even faster or harder. What I observed was the exact opposite. Upon impact deer displayed much less indication of the hit and were able to run much farther. Broadside chest shots and 300gr HC bullets proved to be a LESS effective combination. Shooting hardcast bullets is much like shooting solids, something that we generally do not use on soft skinned animals.
On another board I had a similar discussion with a guy who much prefers the heavy HC bullets for whitetails. However, he intentionally drives the bullet through the shoulders, thus knocking it down on the spot. While this may be an effective use for the HC bullets, I really dislike blasting shattered bone throughout my deer. Additionally, if the shot is a few inches to the rear you will end up with a small hole punched through the lungs. Fatal, but with less terminal effect than you would have gotten from a conventional hollowpoint.
For hunting, I have settled on the best of both worlds. Nosler Partition or Swift A-Frame bullets. Both of these bullets will expand on thin game while maintaining structural integrity and weight to smash through bone if necessary.
They may be pricey but you should only need 1 or 2 to get the job done.
VH

All,
What about performance of 300 grain XTP's as opposed to the 240's?

I love my Mountain Gun, it's my woods carry gun. I'd not part with it for anything.

I have killed a whole pile of bears with the 300's but from a revolver at longer distance they shoot much like a hardcast bullet. I have recovered so few that I would not expect them to have much mushrooming or impact effect when compared to the faster lighter bullets.

I have one sitting right here on my bullet recovery board( I have a sick fascination with recoverd bullets) This one in particular was shot into a black bear from above and slightly angling away. My hunting partner shot this bear. The distance was about 30 feet away from a treestand. He was using a 7.5" ruger redwawk with 21 grains of 296 and this 300 grain XTP bullet. By most standards this would be considered a very hot load!

The bullet entered just off side of spine between the shoulder blades of the bear and exited the belly. The bear spun around and bolted out of sight with no indication of a hit. I climbed down from my stand and walked over to see a huge crater in the clay like mud. I said I think you missed? He was in stunned amazment he could miss this shot with a scoped revolver!

I dug the bullet out of the mud about a foot deep and rinsed it off in a pool of water. I looked and had blood on my fingers. I though the jacket cut my skin. However I could not find where I cut myself and looked close at the bullet and saw blood in the jacket!

I was about to say to my partner he must have hit the bear when we heard him let out a loud bawling sound. Several steps into the woods showed us a lot of blood. This trail continued for about 150 yards or so and we found the bear dead as a rock.

This bullet has massive expansion and looks like a magazine add. I cannot say for 100% certian what was cause by the bear an what was caused by the mud? My guess is that much of this was caused by mud because of the condition of the lead and the mud under the folded jacket. It's difficult to say for sure. Since it's one of very few recovered my experience is limited with the expansion of the 300 grain bullets. All the others recovered from game have shown the hollow point of the huge 300 grain XTP was opened very little and the mass of the bullet was mostly in the same shape it left the gun.

Jacketed bullets cannot achieve the same velocity with the same pressure that a hardcast bullet can. My XTP's were slower then the lead hardcast were. My opinion:

These bullets are good for the 444 and maybe lever guns in .44 mag which can get them to go over 1500fps. MV's of under 1500fps or impacts of under 1200FPS will likely not allow them to function as a HP bullet but more like a Hardcast bullet at lower velocity. From a handgun the 240's can be driven fast enough to expand well. Heavier then that it's a bit difficult to get consistant expansion in tissue. The 240's will still break bones of game under 400-500 pounds with no problem.

To my way of thinking if I'm after bone crunching power for the larger big game of the world. Hardcast bullets are the rule. If anything less is needed then a 240XTP is without equal in my personal experience.

As an in between load 240 Hardcast bullets are nice for practice and 240 grain or 250 grain softpoints would be a good choice on the thick gristle plate of big wild hogs. I would not hesitate to use a 240 XTP on a big hog within a reasonable distance. That gristle plate will really screw with a bullet though and must be a serious consideration when hunting bigger hogs.

I have a box of the Hornady 240gr. XTP factory loads. Next time I shoot a big hog I will prop him up, back off a few yards and see how good the XTP does on the gristle plate just behind the shoulder and report the results. Sorry I can't shoot the shoulder, because they eat too good.
PS I will put one through the skull too,Mark Sullivan style.

[ 04-20-2003, 17:58: Message edited by: N E 450 No2 ]

JJ,

A truly informative series of posts. Thanks !!

Get the mountain gun. I have one and a Ruger SRH. While I love the SRH for heavy loads and hunting, The MG is much handier and I believe is inherently more accurate. Tough to compare since the SRH is scoped. I've got .45's, .45lc's, .40's, 9mm's and the .44's. If I were forced to just one handgun, it would likely be the MG.

JJ,
Thanks for all the information on black bears and bullets. I have a .41 Magnum Mountain Gun but have worried that the 210 XTP would not open as well from a 4" gun. With 23 grains of H110 velocity should be a little over 1300 fps. I much prefer the 170 grain Sierra JHC but with too much fat I'm worried about getting enough penetration. The 200 grain Speer JSWCHP really doen't open too much and it along with the 220 grain Speer are more like jacketed Keith bullets.

My limited experience is about the same as yours as far as cast bullets and game go. I made the mistake of punching two deer through the lungs with a Keith cast bullets and both deer simply ran off the lease that I was hunting on. The 180 grain Sierra .44 however just dumps them on their nose with a lung shot.

Wish Nosler would make a petitioned 210 grain .41 bullet like they do for the .357 and .44.....Bob

I don't have much practical experience to report on black bear hunting but having read these posts with interest. I'd do the following: Load a heart/lung load into the first chamber, 180+ grain JHP in .44 Mag, 200+ grain in .45 Colt. Follow these with conventional 240 grain or 255 grain cast semi-wadcutters for less than perfect angles. I've shot two deer with personal defense bullets, Winchester 170 in .41 Mag and 210 grain in .44 Mag, both Silvertips. The first was center chest and went 18+ inches into the intestines, not recovered. The second was broadside, destroyed both lungs, exited. No more than 10 feet travel in either case. I tried to recover a 255 grain cast .45 Colt @ 1050 fps from 250 pound hog, but had complete penetration on both front shoulders. Since I shot forward of a proper lung shot, deliberately, to stop the bullet, the pig stayed on his feet long enough for a second full penetration shot on both shoulders from the opposite side. I got two test shots on a live standing pig for one hunt. If the .45 Colt will do this with conventional cast bullets, I'd go with a JHP for the first heart lung shot. You can always release the cylinder, by cocking and lowering the hammer, past the first load and use the non-deformable load for shoulders, heads, hip shots going away, etc. Just an observation. I don't think dead animals take a bullet like live animals, so shooting them after they are dead won't give quite the same bullet effect as living animals. The moisture content, action of live muscle and organs, and so on just give a different picture.

[ 05-21-2003, 19:15: Message edited by: Carson ]

Carson, are you saying that you have jacketed loads that shoot the same point of impact as the cast bullets? And if you do would you mind sharing them...I have a 375 rum load that shoots the 285 gn. speer g.s. the same point of aim as the 300 x solid. I would like to find other combos.for my 45 colt and 44 mags.
Thanks 3006ultra