I posted this over in the hand rifle forum and was advised to re-post here as I might get a better response.

I recently picked up a light weight 44 mag handgun to carry on backpacking rifle hunts in areas known for bears. While I'm not really afraid of bears, more afraid of other people who might be in the area, I thought a dual purpose defense weapon might be nice to have (bears and people).

What kind of round would you carry with you for such a weapon? Something that penetrates, or something that rapidly expands?

My guess would be that for protection against 2 legged foe, expansion would be important but for the 4 legged variety, penetration.

Any thoughts?

Rob, I'm glad you moved this post. My answer remains the same:

Rob, I carry a 3-inch M29 Lew Horton, and my defensive loads are 210 grain Silver Tip hollow points. I wouldn't want to face an angry and large animal with this load. I would rather load for bear and be confident that it will be more than adequate for any animals of the two-legged variety. That said, I would go with a hardcast flat-nosed bullet in the 320 grain range for maximum penetration.

I will add this link as a source of really good ammo and the 320 grain WFN .44 magnum load is really good. www.doubletapammo.com

I agree flat point hard cast penetrate great and the terminal performance is outstanding....

I have to agree with the flat point hard cast bullets.

If you handload your own go with a Cast Performance Wide Nose Flat Point. Largest Meplat in the production world.

BTW, if you can cut a near 1/2" hole with a shot there's not much need for more expansion!

quote:

BTW, if you can cut a near 1/2" hole with a shot there's not much need for more expansion!

Couldn't agree with you more!! Big diameter to start with -- just need to make sure that the bullet can penetrate to the vitals..........

You may want to take a look at the Federal 300 grain CastCor round. As I recall CP makes the bullets for these and Federal doesn't run them overly hot. They will still penetrate but the recoil isn't as bad as with the Buffalo Bore or Garrett rounds.

NE450No2 tested what I beleive was the Garrett 320 hardcast on the head of an elephant he shot two years ago. He said it had more than enough penetration for a side brain shot...

In testing some .41 Magnum ammo a few years ago, a 210 grain Gold Dot HP at 1300 fps went through one gallon jug of water and was found nicely expanded in the second. A 255 CP hardcast at the same velocity went through 6 gallon jugs of water, one 3/4" sheet of marine plywood and then burried itself into a 4x4" post.

If a bears skull is on the menu give me a HC any time...as it also works for the two legged vermin...

If you are looking for a carry load for the two leggers in that light weight .44, try the Speer .44 Magnum 200 grain Gold Dot HP Short Barrel load. They use the same deep HP bullet as is used in their .44 Special load but jack the velocity up to 1080 from a 4"...not much recoil and the bullet expands every time...

Bob

I have not tried the Gold Dots in the calibers that you mention, but I have tied them in the 45 ACP in 230 grain and in the 357 Mag 158 grain. I have not seen a 45 ACP Gold Dot not expand, but I have seen the 357 Mag 158 grainer not even deform the nose. It was shot into wet paper with 4 layers of denium covering it, the bullet pentrated through 12" of the wet pack and into the ground 2 to 1/2".

This is great info, thanks!

My thoughts on penetration vs. expansion:

The critical performance factor for a bullet is penetration. A bullet must penetrate enough to damage vital organs. If it expands to 200% of its original diameter but doesn't penetrate far enough to reach the vital organs, it is worthless.

Expansion can increase the diameter of the permanent would caused by a bullet penetrating tissue. Expansion always comes at the expense of penetration, however. That is, a non-expanding bullet will always penetrate more than an expanding bullet given identical weight, velocity, and terminal media.

So, your dual-purpose load (anti-bear and anti-person) must penetrate adequately to stop a bear. A light, fast, expanding hollow-point from a .44 would surely do a number on an attacking human, but would likely be inadequate for bear. A heavy, slow, penetrating bullet would be adequate for both of your concerns.

In a .44 bear gun, tough bullets of 300 grains or more are advisable. Bullets should be non-expanding solids, hard cast, or perhaps a very tough hollow-point such as the Gold Dot or Hornady XTP.

Yes indeed! It looks like we all FINALLY agree on something.......but surely, there is time for dissent! LOL!

No dissent here on this one.........

Me neither!

I picked up a Taurus ultra light Titanium 44 mag last week and took it to the range over the weekend. I'm a pretty poor shot with a pistol but after firing 4 rounds and not hitting paper from 25 feet I asked the range master for assistance. Turns out it was shooting 8 feet left and 2 feet high! After shooting it a few times, the Range Master said "that is a very unpleasant gun to shoot!". I have to agree with him, but it’s meant to be light to carry, not fun to shoot. The gun weighs in at around 1 lb 12 oz.

At any rate, after putting 60 rounds through it, I am pretty much on the paper and just need to spend some time on my shooting technique. My hand is sore enough that I think I’ll down grade to 44 special’s for target rounds!

Thanks for the advice on bullets, buying a few to carry with me on my trips will be the next step.

I just picked up a 4" barreled Ruger Redhawk. Its not light but I still shoot 44 specials in it to sight in and practice. I loaded a couple hundred rounds with a 200 grain round nose flat point that I can hit stuff like cans, clays, and other casual targets with. Then I will figure out how much lower the 44 mag loads shoot and be able to set the sights for either. DW

Rob,
Try wearing double hearing protection,(plugs and muffs) and buy a shooting glove. (sizes tend to run small)These will help tame the beast.