I was suprised at these results -- we went on a hog hunt, and had time at the range to shoot lots of rounds .. recovered some shot into sand -- distance, 10 feet MAX, into loose sand

45 colt, about 1000fps, hornady XTP 250gr MAG HP .452 -- zero expansion, found ~5 inchs below original surface

45 ACP, 230 gr HP factory hydra-shok - rated at 900fps, zero expansion, found ~4 inchs below original surface

500 linebaugh 410gr FN- through 4x4, into sand about 3-4 inches below original surface, zero expansion- though lead FN erroded off, vel unknown, likely 1300fps

same into sand, about .800 but just nose above crimp groove.

i have to tell you, i am surprised that the HPs didn't open up ... I know wet sand would have done better, but was just goofing at the range and trying ...

weird? expected? nice to know the 45s will just sail on through, though

Everything looks good except the .45 Colt at 1000. That bullet is too tough.

Why do you think that many of us don't use expanding bullets?

Jeff, I think the sand is probably the wrong medium to test bullets for expansion; i believe the granules are too loose and capable of moving around with bullet impact.

I saw somewhere on the 'net that one can buy ballistic gelatin. I would offer that using that medium would probably most closely approximate flesh. Even wet paper with bones or hardwood mixed into it would be a better test, in my mind.

I agree with doubless. How far did the Linebaugh penetrate when shot directly into the sand, without the 4x4? I bet not very far. That is typical for just sand.

I've shot the 300 grain XTP in .44 mag into a few animaqls and they didn't expand. I doubt 1,000 fps is enough to get them to open up. The medium is no good for testing either IMHO as well.

Sand is a poor test mediam bullets are not made to expand in sand.

Water is better ballstic gel even better.

Real live targets deer hogs ect. even better lots harder to control for.

Isn't the 45 250 Mag XTP meant for the 454? It probably needed higher velocities to expand. I've shot bullets into a mud bank and got some nice expansion.

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Why do you think that many of us don't use expanding bullets?

The meplat on the XTP is too small so it really needs a little expansion. The mag is too tough to give any at 1000 fps.

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Originally posted by bfrshooter:

quote:

Why do you think that many of us don't use expanding bullets?

The meplat on the XTP is too small so it really needs a little expansion. The mag is too tough to give any at 1000 fps.

It's a hollow-point. It doesn't have a meplat, it has a hole.

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It's a hollow-point. It doesn't have a meplat, it has a hole.

The hole does NOTHING unless it promotes some expansion.

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Originally posted by bfrshooter:

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It's a hollow-point. It doesn't have a meplat, it has a hole.

The hole does NOTHING unless it promotes some expansion.

Sure, it does something, it impedes penetration!

A wide meplat 45 caliber bullet needs no expansion to be very effective

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Posted 19 April 2011 17:15 Hide Post
A wide meplat 45 caliber bullet needs no expansion to be very effective

That is why the small meplat of an XTP needs to open a little, so it starts to match a good cast meplat.
As close as I can measure, a .45 XTP has a 53% to 55% meplat and an LBT WLN has a 79% meplat. A WLN has more but I have none to measure.
A tough XTP mag makes a good hole punch at too low a velocity.
We both agree that a good meplat and a good cast is better.

Again, it has no meplat, it has a hole. It's not a flat-point. I would personally rather sling cast bullets, but that's just me.

But the hole does not do anything unless it starts to fold metal!' Even a hollow point rifle bullet designed for target will fail to open on game.

To quote my brother's favorite line...

Allow me to finish: "Damnit Jim!"

Not arguing about what happens if the hollow-point doesn't open, just saying that it has no meplat, but it does have a hole.

I haven't laughed this hard in a long time!

Glad to contribute! LOL!

I find it rather ignorant to;

1. Shoot bullets into dry sand and expect any expansion.
2. Believe one needs any expansion when a bullet starts at either just under or just over a half inch in diameter.

The fact this was posted by someone who claims to have some experience with handgun bullets makes it even more disappointing.

I see expansion with the big bore revolvers as inhibiting its ability to penetrate which is a negative on LARGE GAME not a positive.

quote:

Originally posted by MS Hitman:
I find it rather ignorant to;

1. Shoot bullets into dry sand and expect any expansion.
2. Believe one needs any expansion when a bullet starts at either just under or just over a half inch in diameter.

The fact this was posted by someone who claims to have some experience with handgun bullets makes it even more disappointing.

The guy was just musing out loud and you have go and be a total prick about it. I find that rather disappointing.

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Not arguing about what happens if the hollow-point doesn't open, just saying that it has no meplat, but it does have a hole.

What happens to the hole if the bullet is too tough? It fills with air, hair, hide or flesh. It still has a pressure wave but it is too small, flowing along the bullet sides.
The bullet needs to disrupt to increase the meplat, but that might not be the right term because it rounds off the nose. But the meplat can be measured up to the round off.
Meplat does mean "flat surface" and is what you have when the hole is plugged up.
Or do you think the hole stays clean and open?
I am sure those shot into sand were filled full!
True, an unfired hollow point has no meplat but that is no longer true when the nose is plugged up. The material entering the hole should initiate expansion and if it doesn't, you have a "meplat."
Sorry guys, but hard packed hair, flesh, sand, water, epoxy or more lead still makes the nose have a meplat.
I will not argue about the bullet you hold in your hand and one that hits something because most of you think nothing changes.
It is like shooting a dead soft Keith at 1400 fps and you think it is still, REALLY, REALLY a Keith going down range! How funny!

Filled hole, not meplat.

Samo, samo! It is flat when filled.

Wrong.

Quoting my brother's favorite line... (again!)

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Originally posted by Doubless:
Quoting my brother's favorite line... (again!)

Very appropriate! LOL!

shesh - just sharing what i was dinking around doing ... not doing bullet tests, damn ...

i was disappopinted .. rifle bullets expand like mad in sand .. due to velocity, i know .. solids distort .. its kinda of cool.

and i claim to be a handgun hunting NEOPHYTE .. varmits and small game don't count ... a couple pigs, 2 deer, and some exotics do NOT make me an expert -- when i have 100 pigs down with my 45, i'll feel like a vetern in handgun hunting .. till then, I am still trying to learn WTH happens with pistols bullets .. i know rifles very well ..

I don't know all the answers .. and was dinking around at the range.. having a nice day, and had the off chance to try and recover some bullets.

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... I know wet sand would have done better, but was just goofing at the range and trying ...

Rough crowd! LOL!

Melt some candle wax into the hollow point and try the test again. It works well with the XPBs.

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Melt some candle wax into the hollow point and try the test again. It works well with the XPBs.

Just like being packed full of any other material. If the point does not expand at all, you have a flat point with a meplat.
If the wax initiates expansion, then you have a hollow point. But after expansion, you will have a measurable meplat.
If the bullet does not expand, what matter is it what the cavity is filled with?

quote:

Originally posted by Lar45:
Isn't the 45 250 Mag XTP meant for the 454? It probably needed higher velocities to expand. I've shot bullets into a mud bank and got some nice expansion.

That is my understanding that the XTP Mags are tougher and meant for higher velocities.

we'd had a go round that i wasnt shooting cast FPs in mine ... which made it interesting .. i've got some "Regular" XTPs loaded.. i can try this weekend, if i remember

the xtp appropriate for 454 is the 240 mag or the 300 mag. both are great bullets, i've had more cast bullets breakup than these guys shed jackets, though i'm sure some have had the opposite experience. just saying they're a reliable bullet, they open at high velocities well and act like a solid at lower velocities so they're good to go on most game. i've used the 300 on buffalo with good results and 240 on game up to cow elk size. never had a failure.

tradmark, if your cast bullets have broken apart, how fast were you pushing them if I might ask? Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:

quote:

Melt some candle wax into the hollow point and try the test again. It works well with the XPBs.

Just like being packed full of any other material. If the point does not expand at all, you have a flat point with a meplat.
If the wax initiates expansion, then you have a hollow point. But after expansion, you will have a measurable meplat.
If the bullet does not expand, what matter is it what the cavity is filled with?

No, the meplat should be hard in construction and part of the bullet's structure -- not a filled hole. A filled hole will never work as well as a real meplat. I have seen bundles of expanding bullets not expand and though they penetrate better than their counterparts that do open, they still make a less than perfect "solid-type" bullet.

That is true Whitworth but it is because the nose on jacketed is just too small even if plugged up.
You could pour lead in the cavity but the meplat is still too small. It is close to a round nose.
Those funny bullets NEED to expand!