Hi All

In recent days it has been drawn to my attention that we can now hand gun hunt with clients in the Northern Territory of Australia, which has not been sanctioned since 2001.

This does not mean that hunters can bring their own handguns to Australia for hunting (there are still federal import restrictions stopping that) but clients CAN legally use the handguns that the safari outfitters have and are licenced for.

Clients will need to get an "H" class endorsement on their Temporary Visitors Permit, which will be no problem, if you are booking with a suitably licenced outfitter and are not excluded from the visitors permit (ie serious criminal record, etc).

NOTE WELL: This is for hunting in the Northern Territory only. It is illegal to hand gun hunt in any other Australian state.

That being the case, I am going to kit our NT camps out with some suitable arms to cater for large amount of enquiries that we get from handgun hunters. We need to show that we have the right tools, before we get the bookings.

In the Northern Territory we have ten species of big game animals, ranging from tiny hog deer to massive water buffalo. The two initial arms I am thinking of supplying are 9" SW 460 and TC Encore interchange (with a medium(308/30-06) and a large calibre, perhaps 444/45-70).

My main question to you learned folks is - what % of handgunners do you think could accurately manage the 460 - or are we thinking too big. The buffalo is the main concern - we need a LOT of penetration.

Any other recommendations will be greatly appreciated. I will probably be restricted to ordering off-the-shelf handguns, rather than custom gear, at this stage.

Best Regards
Matt Graham

Hello Matt. I don't think the .460 Smith is particularly hard to shoot given the fact that it is heavy and compensated. Clients may have trouble shooting it because it's such a large framed revolver. You will probably want a handgun that can sling heavy bullets at moderate velocity -- it'll penetrate deeply and recoil acceptably.

I would factor in cost of ammunition, too. Maybe start off with a Ruger SRH in .454 Casull, a BFR in .475Linebaugh/.480Ruger, and a good sturdy .44magnum. All can be shot with a lower-powered round. Also, ammo would be cheaper and more plentiful. The initial expense would also be less. JMHO, but a fella must watch the pennies when in business.

Cost of ammo not a big consideration, as we will be forced to handload anyhow. In Australia we just dont have access to the different types of ammunition off-the-shelf because we just dont have the population base.

We handload all of our safari rifle ammunition anyhow, so we are used to that.

Do you really think that the size of the 460 frame would be a BIG issue for many shooters?? It will be used for close shooting mainly, in forest country.

Do you think it should be scoped?

I can only offer you my opinion with regards to scoping a hunting handgun. No doubt many here have scopes on theirs and use them well. Me? I like open sites and I like to get close when hunting with a handgun. Just a personal preference.

I like Joe Mack's suggestion as all of the firearms he mentioned can be loaded to lower recoiling levels. You don't want to hand the beginner handgun hunter an SRH with full-tilt Casull loads -- they'll develop a flinch in no time, but it's quite comfortable loaded with .45 Colt loads that are moderate (you can obviously load the Casull down).

I just feel the X-frame Smith is too damn big. I've got big mitts, but even the Smith feels too big to me. Again, just personal preference here.

The grip on the X-frame is the same as the N-frame 44 mag. The extra weight of the X-frame does help to control recoil. The comp does a good job also. I have a 4" 500 and it really isn't that bad to shoot with factory 400gn ammo.

You could use the 500 S&W magnum, biggest production handgun caliber ever... as part of your advertiseing?
And as long as you're handloading, you can use a hard cast heavy bullet at moderate velocity. It seems to work well for many people and has taken Elephant, Cape Buff...
There is also the 700gn cast bullets for it. I don't know if anything big has been shot with them. When loaded to 900fps they are pleasant to shoot.
The weight of the gun isn't too bad, but it does get more noticeable after a few days.

The BFR in 475 Linebaugh could be a good practical alternative. It's a very beefy, tough gun and should hold up well to clients who may drop, ding or misuse it.

For the single shot, maybe a barrel in 375 JDJ? It'll give decent trajectory for longer shots and has been used on all of the Big 5(I think) Mr. JD Jones tested alot of his calibers on Australian game. If notheing else, a phone call to him could be enlightening. He has shot hundreds if not into the 1000s range of Australian ferel animals. he really is a pleasant guy to chat with.

There is also a 475 JDJ cartridge on the 45-70 case. If you had a BFR in 475 Linebaugh, you could shoot the ammo in the Encore in a pinch if you needed to. The original 475 Linebaugh was made from cut down 45-70 brass.(Winchester 45-70 brass does not need to be inside reamed for use in the 475 Linebaugh) The new commercial 475 cases have a smaller rim, but the BFR cylinder could be modified to take the 45-70 rim. then you could order 45-70 brass by the 1000's and use for both guns. When you split a case mouth for the 45-70, just cut it down and use in the 475.
You could make up light loads in 480 brass for the smaller game.

Lar -- wasn't complaining about the grip size, just the overall size of the X-frame. For me it's a bit on the bulky side. You do have a point that the .500 Smith could be used from a marketing standpoint to their advantage.

Lar -- have you shot any 700 grain loads?

All this is interesting but not everyone wants to shoot HUGE 460 cal revolvers that're heavier than hell nor would everyone want to shoot the big cal single shots. I've tried out the new big bore Smiths a while back and never got comfortable with them. Because of the trigger mechanism in a Smith, the triggers were all nice after they've been shot in. Accuracy was OK considering it was done off-hand and the weight was a bit much. Of course, they would be better served shooting off sticks. Too bad something couldn't be done so somebody could bring in their revolver that they're comfortable shooting, you know--accuracy and recoil management from shooting it a bit.

Thanks for the replies so far folks.

Lar - JD Jones shot all of that Aussie game with our company and I was going to ask him his advice for the single shot.

The big problem I have is that we are going to be restricted in the number of arms we can have and I 'think' even spare barrels for the SShot count as whole handguns here so we have to chose carefully.

We wont be using a big revolver like a 460/500 to train newbies - at least not with something like a bull buffalo in the sight picture and we will certainly have a couple of 'lighter' guns - 44Mag and 45-1911 for that purpose.

thanks again
Matt

quote:

Originally posted by 475Guy1:
All this is interesting but not everyone wants to shoot HUGE 460 cal revolvers that're heavier than hell nor would everyone want to shoot the big cal single shots. I've tried out the new big bore Smiths a while back and never got comfortable with them. Because of the trigger mechanism in a Smith, the triggers were all nice after they've been shot in. Accuracy was OK considering it was done off-hand and the weight was a bit much. Of course, they would be better served shooting off sticks. Too bad something couldn't be done so somebody could bring in their revolver that they're comfortable shooting, you know--accuracy and recoil management from shooting it a bit.

This would only be for buffalo hunting - just cant rely on anything lighter to get the penetration to kill them properly.

Will have lighter arms for other jobs and those who dont want to shoot the hand cannons.

In my opinion, any client who wanted to hunt buffalo with a handgun, would probably be experienced enough to handle the 460 S&W Magnum so that would be my number one choice. As it stands now, the 460 S&W Magnum & the 500 S&W Magnum are probably two of the most popular SERIOUS handgun cartridges so your potential handgun hunter would likely have some experience with them.

For ranges of up to 25 yards, I don't think a scope is needed. For ranges of 50 yards and beyond, I prefer a scope. I also wouldn't prefer to hunt dangerous with a single shot handgun. I doubt anyone will shoot a 500 S&W Magnum accurately double action but at least there is another shot available sooner than it would be with a single shot weapon.

Matt,
I believe that I was the last person to take Buffalo in the N.T. / Arnhemland with a handgun, while hunting with Steve Fullerton in July of 2000. I used my T/C Contender in .375 JDJ, and 270 gr. Hornady bullets.
I've used the .375 JDJ throughout North and South America and Africa as well as in the Territory. I would highly recommend that one of your handguns be in that caliber, and that it be scoped. I've had best success around the world with a 4X Leupold. I use a 12" Contender, but I'd probably recommend a 14 or 15" Encore for general use by a variety of people.
That caliber will do well on buff and Banteng, as well as boars and your various introduced deer. A good secondary barrel for deer size game would be a 15" or so .308 Win.
I've taken buff on 3 continents, as well as several bears with the .375 JDJ. You won't be sorry, if you pick one.
I've used the FA .475 Linebaugh also on buff and bear (and Elk, pigs, etc.)to my complete satisfaction, but if you want one of your client handguns to be a revolver, I'd probably suggest a good .44 Mag. It's easily handled and good enough for hogs, goats, fox, roo, etc. I'd scope it, but a few will prefer iron sights. If you pick a Redhawk, Super Redhawk, or one of the .44 Ruger "Hunter" variants, it can be scoped, and the optics can be removed in seconds for the shooter who wants to use iron sights.

Matt,
As a further thought, you and Bob Penfold and Steve Fullerton, Simon Kyle-Little, Jim Dieckman et al should lobby hard in the N.T. to get this restriction lifted on import of handguns for hunting. Frankly, MOST international handgun hunters will prefer to bring and use their own handguns. They're a bit different than rifle hunters in that regard

Kenoneill -- how does the .375 JDJ kick? Is the TC compensated? I've also heard that it is an effective round.

I also think that the beginner could handle a .44 mag loaded with heavy bullets at moderate velocities. No one here will be surprised that I recommend a Super Redhawk!

My Contender is Magnaported. My 15" Encore has an SSK Arrestor. Both need it. The extra weight of the Encore helps moderate the recoil. A Contender should be properly set up with Pachmayrs for the extra weight, and of course any .375 JDJ should be scoped. Want the truth? They kick like hell with 270-300 gr. bullets. 220's are easy ( well, easier). It's still a bunch less than a max-loaded .45-70 Contender. For the person who wants to handgun hunt very large game, learning to tolerate and shoot well despite that recoil, is part of the price.
Beginners? I daresay few if any beginners will invest the time and money to handgun hunt buff in the N.T., and NONE of them should.

Hi Kenoneill

Thanks so much for the information.

If it was up to the NT government we would be hunting crocodiles with handguns!! Seriously, they are all for hunters bringing their own handguns but it is a Federal restriction that precludes it - so while ever we have a an anti-gun Federal Government (which we have) we tread very carefully around these issues - lest they bring in even more restrictions. At present we have relative freedom for clients to bring their own bolt and break-action firearm here to hunt with but if we push the Feds they could shut THAT down in a heartbeat!!

At present we are just making small gains back from the filthy (spit) anti-gunners here.

Thanks again for your info about the SSHOT.

Cheers
Matt

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Lar -- wasn't complaining about the grip size, just the overall size of the X-frame. For me it's a bit on the bulky side. You do have a point that the .500 Smith could be used from a marketing standpoint to their advantage.

Lar -- have you shot any 700 grain loads?

Yes, I got some 700gn cast bullets from Ranger Rick in Alaska. The velocity was only about 900 fps and they were comfortable to shoot.

Don't over look the .41RemMag in your lineup. Will do everything a .44RemMag will with bullets up to 265g, will shoot flatter, and be easier on the hand. BUT being a handgun hunter for almost 15 years I'd never go anywhere that wouldn't let me bring my own guns.
BTY I had a 12 inch ported SKS Contender in .411JDJ. That is a full sized .444Marlin necked to .41 caliber. Was a handfull to shoot but is would put 265g BearTooth hard cast through railroad ties at 50 yards. Had it scoper with a Bushnel Trophy Red Dot in a three ring setup. Was real fast on running piggies and goats.

Just thinking about the option to go scoped or not.
The Ruger Super Redhawk and Bisley Hunter are made to take the Ruger scope rings. That way you wouldn't have to worry about removeing the rear sight for a base mount on the top of the frame like some guns do. It's also very strong.
I have a Taurus Raging Bull in 454. It's a very accurate gun(1.5" at 50 yd), but the factory scope mount seems kind of cheesey.

Anybody know how close the scope is on a SRH or Bisley Hunter when you take it off and put back on?

Very, very close. May or may not require about an inch of adjustment at about 75 yds. Most of mine have seldom required an adjustment. Pay attention to torque and screw slot position.

Matt:

If I were going to offer an X frame Smith for large game I would pick the 500 over the 460. The 460 doesn't really offer much more than a 454 (at least one in a FA) and I think a handgun in .45 is a little small for really large game. My choice would be a 475 (BFR for a rental type gun)...or a S&W 500 if you have to get an X.

POI can change significantly from shooter to shooter, so your client is going to have to do some sighting in before hunting. I would give the client the option of scope of iron.

my .02, dvnv