Hello, I'm writing for advice on a good gun/caliber to use while backpacking. First of all, I should say that I was originally planning on posting this message in the handgun shooters room, but the information I am seeking has more to do with appropriate stopping power on wild animals, rather than humans, so I decided to post here in the hunting room. A little about me: I grew up with a policeman for a dad who was also an S&W collector, and I grew up handloading in the 1960s for the .44 Special, .44 Mag, .41 Mag, and .357 & .38. My father was an "old time" .44 Special guy and took his queue from the old "Forty-Four Associates", which included Elmer Keith. My dad was also a huge fan of the Colt 1911, and I am very experienced with that round, but it's been many years since I've handloaded for any of these cartridges. I grew up shooting these guns, and my all time favorite big bore revolver caliber is the .41 Mag. Mine is the original Model 58 my dad bought back in 1964. The reason I'm mentioning all of this is to show that I'm familar with only these old favorites - I'm not really privy to most of the newer handgun calibers. Here's my situation: I currently carry a Colt 1911 Lightweight Commander in .45 ACP, and I carry two magazines loaded with 185gr JHP +P Hydrashock ammo. The ballistics for this stuff is pretty nice (185 Gr. JHP+P Hydrashock
with 1140MV, and 534ME). Let me stress that I don't shoot this ammo on a regular basis, I just use it for my main backpacking gun. In years past I've carried a sweet little S&W .357 Magnum Ladysmith revolver, which I like, but I feel a little more comfortable with the larger bore pistol. I spend a lot of time in the wilderness of Washington's North Cascades backpacking, and I've had several encounters with black bears, which have turned out ok, except for one bear that tried to get into my tent repeatedly one night. We are also experiencing very high confrontations with cougars, the population of which has been on the rise since hunting them with dogs was outlawed a few years ago. There are grizzlies in the North Cascades but I think you could go a lifetime backpacking and never see one. My question is this: do you hunters consider a .45 Auto with the above mentioned loads adequate defense against black bear and cougar? I am contemplating buying a new big bore revolver, perhaps the S&W Titanium .44 Special (would have to handload) or the Taurus titanium revolver in .41 Magnum. When I read that Taurus was making a lightweight packable revolver in .41 Magnum my heart soared. I have always loved that 210gr Remington load, and have shot it better than any other big bore. I just wish the darned gun was made by S&W. I've shot a couple of Taurus guns and although they performed well, the trigger pulls, among other things, just weren't up to snuff with a Smith. Still, this Taurus sounds like a gun tailor made for what I'm looking for. I would appreciate your comments on these three guns & calibers that I've mentioned. I would be very interested in a .44 Magnum version in the S&W Titanium .44 Special. Then again, maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree, maybe my little slab sided lightweight Colt Commander with .45 185gr+P Hydrashock loads is perfect. Any comments?
Thanks.
Salish
Seattle

Tarus 44 Special 3" barrel..5 shots Plenty of stopping power and resonably conceilable.
Also a revolver Nerver Fails you and the 44 Has a LARGE wound hole
Fireball

That .41 mag sounds like a nice package. I have a S&W 629 Mountain Gun. It's a lightweight .44 mag w/4" barrel, stainless steel houge grips. Carries very well and shoots wonderful for me. I load it with 240 gr XTP's over Winchester 296. This rig has all my bases covered.

If a big bear wanted to bite me, I'd be 1000 times as happy with a 45 auto in my hands than to be empty handed. Probably twice to 2.5 times as happy as that with a big magnum revolver. I'd go with something 45 or higher powerwise that's comfortable to carry over something that's well suited to hunting bears with.

H. C.

I'd go with the S&W 357, 3-1/8�bbl, 14.5oz. The Taurus 41 Mag is like 25oz right? Maybe ask S&W if they plan on making a 41Mag. I've had two Taurus PT-99 9mm and a 6" SS 357. The first 9 was the unbelievably accurate, the second one was like a typical pistol, otherwise both were great guns. The 357 was the worst gun I ever owned. Not only did it look like $#!t compared to the S&W, but my Daisy Red Ryder was more accurate, and I�m not kidding! This was all about 10-12 years ago and I heard they stepped up their revolver quality quite a bit. I looked at some at the gun shop and at least the looks and fit were much better. That blue Taurus 44 Spcl I really cool looking too, but the bbl is kinda short for me.

Salish I can tell you are an experienced big bore handgunner. So am I. I have hunted Black Bear in Montana 9 times, back pack hunts, hunted in Alaska 45 days. My favorite handgun is a Properly modified Colt .45acp. and I carried one on my first two Montana Bear hunts. After I saw how big Bear bones were I switched to my second favorite, and my first favorite "FIELD' pistol, a 44mag S&W mod 29 four inch. I think this is the best handgun for the "RIFLE" hunter or the back packer. I have used Speer shot loads for Grouse and other small game, and with @300gr. cast bullets I feel safe in the woods from any animals two or four legged. A revolver is the ONLY choice for a FIELD gun, the first time you know you have an animal problem he may already be on top of you. An automatic can fail to function when you are wrestling with an animal that has already knocked you down. There are no 'FLIES' on a 41mag. or a properly loaded 45 colt, if you already have one. I have seen several people carry a "BIG 7.5 inch revolver on a hunting trip, only to leave it in the tent on the second day because it is "TOO BIG, and TOO HEAVY". I use a DeSantes cross draw holster and wear it all the time. Very comfortable even while wearing a heavy backpack. Do not leave home without it...

How about a Glock Mod. 20, 10mm with Cor-Bon hunting loads?

True that if there are cartridges in a revolver and you pull the trigger it will go bang.

I have spoken to two people who do not feel the Taurus is a revolver that can stand up to long time use, not like a Python or Smith & Wesson.

If you have your heart set on the revolver you cannot go wrong with a .44 Mag. with slightly reduced loads.

With your .45 a good deep penetrating bullet would work well.

I have no experience handgun hunting so these are just my inexperienced opinions.

If your partial to Smiths you cant beat a mountain gun or in a tarus one of the new tracker .45s would work great. If you want inexpensive a charter bulldog in .44 special would fit the bill

just use a 41 44 45 in any flavor you like and you can rest assure that you are will protected. Now that caliber is out of the way as for the gun that is something only you and spending a lot of time in gun shops handling different one will tell you what is best.

Brian

just my 2�
I am a 10 fan, for penetration.
I carry a EAA/Tanfoglio 10 compact, wonder finish. It's small, but mebbe a little heavy. My 5'2 wife takes it away from me whenever it's not hunting.
180gr at ~1150

OR, second choice if you need a wheel gun

taurus CIA in 45LC, loaded hot, with fast powder. The barrel's TOO short for anything else.
180gr @ ~1000 (due to short barrel)
225gr ~1000 also.. again, short barrel

jeffe

I own a Taurus Tracker Titanium in 41 mag (it is available in stainless steel also). It weighs 28oz. I am very pleased with it. The trigger started out a little heavy but after about 100 rounds broke in very nice. If you are going to shoot factories, I would look at Federal's cast core load with the Cast Performance 250gr hard cast bullet. If reloading, both Cast Performace and Beartooth Bullets sell heavy cast bullets. I would not shoot those loads everyday but they would be nice for your purposes. Oh, BTW, the "ribber" grips and porting soaks up the recoil very well. Taurus has also released a SS Tracker in 45LC and one in 45ACP. The Tracker format is a "compact frame" about the size of a Smith L. As a result, the big bores are 5 shooters.

This article might help:
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=627&id=48

I just recently picked up an S&W 66 3" 357,and I consider that this revolver will make an superlative hiking and hunting companion, and feel confident that with the right ammunition (Cor-BOn 200grn Hard Cast Flat Points & Win 180grn Nosler Partition Gold) it will able to handle shots of opportunity on our small-bodied whitetail deer, as well as fulfill defense duties on our relatively small Virginia Blackbear should the emergency need ever arise.

A 41, 44, or 45 would be more ideal, yet do not discount the 357 with heavy ammo

With the availability and cost of a S&W Mountain gun what it is, I use a 5 1/2" stainless, .45 colt Redhawk. It's heavy, but fabulous with 300-350 grains at 1,300 ft. Check out the Alpine model at the Bowen web site galary. If you have the where with all, that is probably todays best backpack bear protection.

I have been a backpacker for 30 years and when I backpack hunt with a rifle, I don't even think about a handgun. However, backpacking for fishing (or just for the sake of going) is a different story. I own a 66 (2 1/2") 687+ (4") 37 (2"), Combat Commander 45, & Glock 23 40 S&W.

The knock against the 2 Autos is available bullets. You DON'T!! want to use a normal hollowpoint on a bear. Hardcast, flat point is the way to go, and I'm just not sure that there is anything like this that will feed reliably. There is also the unanswered question of reliability after a week on the trail.

So......I carry the 66 w/180 hard cast. I don't shoot this load much, so I'm not afraid of beating up the poor little K frame. It's a nice small package, 32 oz, and points well. (shotshells available too!)

I admit to being tempted by the Tracker variants in 41 Mag. myself. I'm holding myself back because I hear VERY conflicting stories about Taurus quality. If I was confident that I'd get a good gun, I'd buy one of the 2 1/2" fixed sight models in an instant.

There you go....another fool with an opinion.

JimF

First of all, those that think a revolver is much more reliable than an auto have never seen revolver really knocked around. Drop a typical wheelgun on something hard, and, 50% of the time, it won't fire. The clylinder won't turn. I've seen guns used as clubs that had the same problem.
Good field grade auto, with good ammo, are very reliable. Ask the military and police forces of the world. I've seen alot of them abused quite a bit. And seen none of them knocked out of action from abuse.
If you really want to kill a black bear with an handgun, the .44 Mag, or the .41 Mag., are the way to go. JJ Hack posted over at 24hourcampfire a while back that you don't need the heavy cast bullets for black bear. The standard hunting ammo works fine. He's seen alot of them killed with handguns.
He also related that the 10 mm works well on them. Again, he has seen this, not guessed.
If you like the .45 Auto, I suggest the use of the 230 gr. Hydrashok ammo, not the 185 gr. stuff. If your only going to use it in a pinch, and you can use it under pressure, it should work. E

The Freedom Arms Model 97 in .45 Colt is a very nice packing type revolver. Mine weighs 36 ounces (unloaded) with the 5.5" barrel. It will handle a 300 grain @ 1200fps; plenty of power for the weight, IMO. But there's not many problems you can't solve with a 255 @ 1000.

They also make it in .41 Magnum

Of course a nice 4" DA S&W .41 or .44 Magnum is the time-tested approach.

I like cast bullets, but that's my opinion.

[ 07-03-2002, 22:05: Message edited by: JB in SC ]

JimF,

Just an FYI for your consideration

When carrying my 45acp into the wilderness of Southeastern VA and thinking of Blackbear, I load it with Hornady's 230grn FMJ Flat Point, which acts on other game just like a Hard Cast FP.

I would think this would be superior to the various jacketed HP's offered, but remember, Lee Jurras and Maj George Nonte killed several Blackbear with a 190grn Supervel HP in the 1970s. According to their reports of this hunt in their Handgun Hunting book, it served them quite well.

One thing I forgot to mention regarding the Tracker: apparently the 460 Tracker will not handle the bigger 300+ grain ammo due to having a short cylinder. I communicated with someone at Cor-Bon regarding this and the model 450, and they stated the cylinder in the Taurus Compact frame 45 Colt is too short to handle any of their +P 45Colt ammo.

Given this, I'd chose the 425 41mag Tracker or the 627 357mag Tracker over the 460 45Colt any day!

I even read of a fellow who was contemplating a 300grn 45acp load for the 455Tracker, based upon such a load using 45auto rim brass, which I believe he was using in his S&W 625. Interesting possibilities with the 455 Tracker

I have carryed a ruger SS 6 6in for years in 357. The new Titanium 41 trackers seem to me a good gun. Now if they would only make it in a six in. I most likey will still carry my 6in 357. Until Iam sure one of the titanium trackers in 41 finds me at a good price.

Hey Sean;

I've wondered about the factory or aftermarket FMJ's for some time. My worry is this, although the bullets are jacketed, the cores are (I think) pretty soft. Hence the concern of bullets breaking up or deforming badly on bone. The flat point hardcasts seem to be far less likely to flatten out, break up, or deflect.

I shoot a 180 flat point in my glock for example, and dug some bullets out of a clay bank alongside some 180 hardcast from my 357's. The cast .357's were in much better shape than the 40's.

RE: The Super Vel hollowpoint story, I remember seeing the articles also. I forget the details but I'd suppose that a hollowpoint would be fine on the chosen shot. It's the unchosen shot that would worry me. Ie when the bear is sittin' on yer chest and you have to get the bullet through the skull for example.

I also remember that Col. Wesson and Phil Sharpe (I think) used the then new .357 to kill a few grizzlies when the cartridge was introduced. That's a practice that most of us would prefer to avoid, but with chosen shots it worked for them.

Now if I'd just quit hearin' horror stories about Taurus revolvers, I'd get me one in a 41 or mebbe a 45.......

JimF

Wow, that was an incredible bunch of advice. I thank each and every one of you for your help. A lot of very interesting info here. I'd like to stress that I'm speaking primarily of black bear and cougar, and if I spend some time in Montana (as I do yearly, as I have property and family in the Mission Mountains north of Missoula) I'll carry my old N-frame Model 29 or Model 58. And I'm going to go way out on a limb here and say that I'm not so sure that the proper bear spray might be better for self defense against a grizzly charge than a handgun, although the stories on spray are not all conclusive. I'm a Fed Fisheries person and I know too many USFWS and State Fisheries guys who have told me stories of bear charges in Alaska and the lower 48. For them, at least, the spray worked better than they would have thought a handgun would have worked. Something to think about. For me down here in the Washington Cascades, I really don't have to worry about grizzleys.

Sean HHI: thanks for the .jpg of your .357 Smith. Beautiful gun and reminds me of my little S&W .357 Ladysmith. As I mentioned in my post, I'm unfamiliar with modern guns & ammo, and I had no knowledge of the Cor-Bon 200gr flatpoints or the Win. Nosler 180gr partitions - I will take a look.

I agree wholeheartedly with most everyones conclusion that a wheelgun is more reliable than a semi auto. Still, I've never, ever had a malfunction with my lightweight commander. On the other hand, I do have a couple of ammo-finicky 1911's that have had after market "accurizing" jobs done to them. I think the older stock 1911s were extremely reliable guns. But since I really do prefer revolvers I'll take a very close look at some of these guns mentioned, and I thank everyone for your advice.

Regards,
Cliff
Seattle

For the same purposes you describe, I carry a Ruger SP 101 .357 with the 3" barrel. Very compact and easy to carry while giving you the ability to use full-power heavy loads.