This post will be loaded with photos, so I will apologize in advance to those of you who still have dial-up internet. This morning, bfrshooter and I tested two different bullets/loads in .475 Linebaugh on water jugs. While I realize that this is not the definitive test, it is interesting in the very least. The weapon used in the test was a BFR with a 7.5-inch barrel. We had intended to use my custom SRH in .475 Linebaugh, but the shorter cylinder of my Ruger didn't allow us to use one of the loads, so the BFR got the nod.

The first load was 28 grains of 296 underneath a water-quenched 370 grain lead hollow-point (50% wheel weight and 50% pure lead). Having tested many similar loads we can estimate that it was running somewhere north of 1,400 fps. Here is a photo of the load:



The medium used consisted of 5 one-gallon jugs of water with a two-gallon jug as a back-up. Here is the video of the shot (I apologize for the quality of the video):



The splash was impressive, but a bullet wasn't recovered even though it never exited the 2-gallon back-up jug. Why? Because it fragmented and it was shrapnel that killed the last bottles. This photo shows all that we managed to recover:



Next up was a 430 grain water-quenched long flat-nosed bullet with a gas check. It was seated over 26 grains of 296 for a chronograph verified 1,330 fps. Here is the a picture of the load:



The medium consisted of 6 one-gallon jugs (we didn't have any more!), and the same 2-gallon back-up jug (it was perforated a bit, but still usable as it still held water). Here is the video clip:



Note that the splash is not only bigger when it hits the first jug, but it completely destroys all subsequent jugs, punches through the 2-gallon back-up, and continued to march God-knows how much farther.......obviously no bullet was recovered........

Food for thought, gentlemen.........

Yea, don't be walking in the woods when you are shooting the .475 Linebaugh and them 430 grain bullets...lol

quote:

Originally posted by Redhawk1:
Yea, don't be walking in the woods when you are shooting the .475 Linebaugh and them 430 grain bullets...lol

Yes, that is the moral of the story!

Despite the higher FPE of the faster lighter bullet the video shows compelling evidence that the greater momentum of the larger slower bullet to have impacted with a heavier blow. The shape and hardness of the Flat point distributed its power through a greater depth and IMHO be the deadliest bullet on large and dangerous beast.

Can I get an "AMEN"!

Amen!

Thanks for sharing that, Whitworth.



So I suppose they really do penetrate!

Also I'm surprised at how badly that hollowpoint got chewed up by the penetration.

That would be a gross understatement, someoldguy! It's crazy how much they penetrate!

I'm also surprised at how much that hollowpoint got chewed up by the penetration.

Everyone knows I have never been an advocate of hollow points or dead soft boolits for hunting but this even surprised me.
The hollow point was a little more explosive on the first jug but just petered out fast. The WLN just blew everything off the bench and did more damage to the sixth jug then the hollow point did to the third one.
The path of the hollow point got confusing too and it looked like it wandered to come out sideways somewhere. At least there was no real boolit hole in the last jug.
The WLN just trucked straight through.

quote:

370 grain lead hollow-point (50% wheel weight and 50% pure lead).

Aha! So that was pretty much an all-lead bullet, no copper jacket. Lead, being soft, is going to get chewed up pretty easily, so maybe it's not as big a surprise as we might think. But I'm just guessing here.

I wish we had slow motion! Then the difference would really show up.

Someoldguy, those boolits were water dropped and hard and tough. Much tougher then a jacketed hollow point. You would have seen a much larger splash at the first jug with a jacketed and I believe we would have caught it in a jug.
What my take on the whole thing is that it is not a good idea to use a hollow point on very large game.
And even though the LFN wasted some energy in the air, it did more damage for a longer distance then the failed hollow point.
Our next fun test will be with the WFN and we need many more jugs.
Whitworth said he had a lot of jugs and I laughed. Said two shots only!

BFRshooter, I have to agree with you, I am not a hollow point person myself. Never liked them and never will.

I do however like the fact you included energy in your post, seeing how it is a factor also.

Jeese, I brought a dozen jugs over -- I can't consume water that fast!!

Better tell all the people around you to start saving the jugs for you. You will need 100 of them so you can at least shoot 10 times..

I would ask all of you to start collecting one-gallon jugs for me....... Thank you in advance.......

Whitworth

Good test, good info.

I would like to see you repeat the test with Hornady 400gr XTP factory and Buffalo bore 400gr SP factory ammo.

The Buffalo Bore 400gr SP bullet is made by Speer, HSM uses the same bullet in their 400gr 475 Linebaugh loads.

quote:

Jeese, I brought a dozen jugs over -- I can't consume water that fast!!

I remember a scene in a Marx brothers movie where Harpo was drinking large quantities of water. Groucho was standing beside him during this time and finally said, "If he keeps this up, we'll have to build a dam in back of him!"

quote:

those boolits were water dropped and hard and tough. Much tougher then a jacketed hollow point. You would have seen a much larger splash at the first jug with a jacketed and I believe we would have caught it in a jug.
What my take on the whole thing is that it is not a good idea to use a hollow point on very large game.

OK, gotcha.

You've pretty much confirmed my own suspicions about hollow points vs. big game.

Good tests, keep 'em up, guys!

And remember: Milk. It does a body good!

More .475 Linebaugh stuff...

Some time back, I found this page which deals with, among other things, the penetration of the .475 in wet newspaper, all with flat nosed boolits. The results are just like what you guys have found: pretty darn phenomenal!

Here are the .475 Linebaugh loadings:

Bullet weight Velocity Penetration
420 grains 1050 fps 40 ins
420 grains 1335 fps 47 ins
420 grains 1378 fps 47 ins
440 grains 1357 fps 53 ins

Keep in mind these tests were done using soaked newspaper, which generally gives lower penetration than what you'd get in gelatin, or what you'd likely get in soft tissue. Simply amazing to me!

But keep up the milk jug tests! Who knows? These tests might have been wrong.



P.S. The doggone editor wouldn't let me do the chart all nice and neat like I wanted.

I really wanted to try the 400 gr Hornady and searched for a few. I must have shot them all up long ago. Whitworth forgot the Hornady factory loads but I don't much like them as they are slow. If I remember they weren't much over 1100 fps. But I could have pulled a few bullets and reloaded them.
Nothing wrong with the speed for hunting but we wanted the biggest splash we could get.
I don't understand why Hornady loaded .475's at .480 velocity, in fact less?
Redhawk, yes the energy is impressive but when you see how a flat meplat distributes it for such a long distance you can see my point that a boolit does not have to stay in the animal and perform a false "energy dump" that would not add to the killing power. In a large animal the boolit would have given up most of it's force, yet still made an exit hole that I will forever believe in.
I would have not believed that 5 jugs would all explode like they did and if the large end jug would have been full, it might have too.
Get down to a small animal like a deer and if you look at the first two jugs alone, the force is impressive and even though the boolit still has power as it exits, there is way more then enough as it passes through the deer.
I just love this caliber!

BFRshooter, I know exactly what you are saying. I never said I liked a bullet that did not penetrate and dumped all it's energy within the first few inches. It is not energy dump that I keep referring to, it is energy transfer as it penetrates. This is why I like big holes, heavy bullets and a lot of energy, which comes from velocity. I get the best of it all.
I get great penetration, big holes for blood to run out of and the energy transfer that destroys tissue, this is what I expect out of the right combination.

It's momentum transfer...

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Whitworth

Good test, good info.

I would like to see you repeat the test with Hornady 400gr XTP factory and Buffalo bore 400gr SP factory ammo.

The Buffalo Bore 400gr SP bullet is made by Speer, HSM uses the same bullet in their 400gr 475 Linebaugh loads.

Let me tell you the snafu that led to us using that particular hollow-point. In all of my brilliance, I forgot the Hornady .475 ammo that I had intended to test at home (an hour and a half away) -- I thought it was in my shooting bag, but discovered it wasn't. My original intent was to pit the Hornady 400 grain hollow-point load against the Buffalo Bore 410 grain .480 Ruger load. The bullet weights and velocities are similar (I chronographed them out of my SRH recently and the Hornady ammo was running about 50 fps faster than the .480 load, a difference I found acceptable). I didn't want anyone to cry foul that our home-brewed .475 loads featured a heavier bullet travelling at 1,000 fps faster, hence the deceision to use the BB .480 load. I will definitely do this again -- as soon as I drink enough water that I have the requisite bottles!

quote:

Originally posted by someoldguy:
More .475 Linebaugh stuff...

Some time back, I found this page which deals with, among other things, the penetration of the .475 in wet newspaper, all with flat nosed boolits. The results are just like what you guys have found: pretty darn phenomenal!

Here are the .475 Linebaugh loadings:

Bullet weight Velocity Penetration
420 grains 1050 fps 40 ins
420 grains 1335 fps 47 ins
420 grains 1378 fps 47 ins
440 grains 1357 fps 53 ins

Keep in mind these tests were done using soaked newspaper, which generally gives lower penetration than what you'd get in gelatin, or what you'd likely get in soft tissue. Simply amazing to me!

But keep up the milk jug tests! Who knows? These tests might have been wrong.



P.S. The doggone editor wouldn't let me do the chart all nice and neat like I wanted.

Water really upsets bullets, that is why we did it. No matter what media a person uses, there will be detractors, be it ballistic gelatin, wet newspaper, phonebooks, etc. The only truly acceptable medium is game!! But, it is interesting that the common belief that a solid flat-point bullet doesn't disrupt tissue like an expanding bullet, is counter to what I have seen on game, which the water jugs to some extent showed as well. Fun stuff!

From personal experience, the Speer 400 grain Gold Dot SP ahead of 24.0 grains of 296 broke the left femur on a 550 pound cow elk at 70 yards, then traveled diagonally through the body until it stopped under the hide on the right shoulder.

The particular load was chronoed at 1272 fps.

More damage and pentration came from the slower bullet -- yes, with less muzzle energy....... I will go back and redo the test as soon as I consume enough water -- oh, and as soon as I find that ammo......

MS, I agree! Speer makes a tougher bullet then most. Even in the .44 they perform the way they need to.

I am willing to test the Speer offerings, but I'll still bet the harcast does a lot better......

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
I am willing to test the Speer offerings, but I'll still bet the harcast does a lot better......

With out a doubt..

I'm just not a big fan of expanding bullets. These flat-nosed bullets do so much more damage that one would think. The red hog in my signature photo was shot quartering away with a 400 grain WFN (.454), and it nearly removed the offside leg -- we litterally pulled it off with a light tug when we were skinning it. Just can't argue with that kind of performance.......

A big no for 4 legged animals but what about the two legged ones? Penetration seems about right.
That HP looked like it would do well in a bedroom load. That is if you like to have a cannon at the ready!

I have no doubt had that bullet I shot the elk with been a hard cast I would not have recovered it.

quote:

Originally posted by Rex Rat:
A big no for 4 legged animals but what about the two legged ones? Penetration seems about right.
That HP looked like it would do well in a bedroom load. That is if you like to have a cannon at the ready!

Rex Rat, if you want to carry a .475 Linebaugh for protection against criminals, you go right ahead! I am sure that 99.9% of would-be attackers would get one glance at it and beat a hasty retreat......

I have a 6" FA in 475.
I killed a turkey with the Buffalo Bore light load, a 420gr at 983 out of my gun.

With the Hornady 400 gr factory load:
I have also killed a wild pig, whitetail doe and a small black bear.
No bullets recovered.

In Zimbabwe I used the Hornady factory load as a finisher, [and as a tester] on a Zebra.

The loads were fired point blank, the zebra was laying on his side. I shot behind the shoulder.

Both bullets almost exited the zebra, they were sticking out of the skin. One had turned completely around with the base sticking out.

This bullet weighed 377.7 grains and had expanded to .675, but when it flipped around a piece of jacket was pulled out to .940.

The other Hornady weighed 374.5gr and expanded to .830x.873.

I have also had a chance to shoot some 475 Factory loads into some Ballistic animal glue used by a bullet making company.

Again all from my 6" FA all factory loads.

First the 400 Hornady. Vel. 1247fps
It penetrated 4 blocks @9.5"
Weighed 374.9gr. and expanded.770

Buffalo Bore 400gr SP, this is the Speer bullet.
1316fps.
It penetrated 7 blocks @16 5/8"
Weighed 399.1gr. Expanded .770.
The bullet expanded to the cannalure and stopped. This might be a good bullet if you want some expansion, but still good penetration.

Buffalo Bore 350gr Hawk
1422fps
Penetrated 4.5 blocks weighed 274.4gr, but two fragments of lead were next to the bullet, they weighed 13.3gr.

The Buffalo Bore 420gr Cast
1374fps
This bullet penetrated all 12 blocks @28.5 inches and hit the steel stop plate in the rear of the "device". This caused the bullet nose to flatten out, but from the wound channel no expansion had taken place until the steel was hit.
Recovered weight 400.3gr.

Buffalo Bore 440gr Cast
1303fps
This bullet also penetrated all 12 blocks, and hit the steel plate causing the nose to flatten out.
recovered weight 425.5gr.

As you can see the Hornady bullet behaved the same way in the zebra that it did in the Animal glue tests expension wise but it did penetrate farther in the zebra.

From these tests it is easy to see that cast bullets do give a lot more penetration.

Whitworth, I would like to see how the 400gr Hornady and the 400gr Buffalo Bore SP perform in yout tests.
Water jugs are a lot easier to get than animal glue, or Zebras for testing.

quote:

The only truly acceptable medium is game!!

Whitworth, you get another big AMEN from me on that one!



About hollowpoints in a caliber like this, the only use I could see for them might be as self-defense against such things as brown bears. (And that's a big "might," too. I'd have to have more information before I seriously considered it.)

For self-defense against humans, I wouldn't seriously consider a .475 hollowpoint at all, unless it was all I could get to at the time. Somehow, I'm getting the notion of a watermelon-sized exit wound in my mind. Even though there's only one kind of dead, the use of it for this reason might not play well with the local prosecutor.

quote:

Buffalo Bore 350gr Hawk
1422fps
Penetrated 4.5 blocks weighed 274.4gr, but two fragments of lead were next to the bullet, they weighed 13.3gr.

That is a Grizzly Ammo Load I believe and not avialable from Buffalo Bore

N E 450 No2, that is really good information!! Thank you for posting it! I will test more loads in the near future. Was that 350 grain Hawk load by Grizzly? I think Grizzly loads Hawk bullets.......

While I haven't shot any bear (yet), I would caution against using a hollow-point. This is a situation that unequivocally demands no-nonsense penetration, and a wide flat-nose would reign supreme in this situation.

jwp, where are you? You've shot grizz with a .475, what say you??

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
While I haven't shot any bear (yet), I would caution against using a hollow-point. This is a situation that unequivocally demands no-nonsense penetration, and a wide flat-nose would reign supreme in this situation.

jwp, where are you? You've shot grizz with a .475, what say you??

You are spot on IMHO and experience...