The new Barnes manual (Number 3) has a big error. For the 180 XLC's, they give data for the 165's. Velocities, max and starting powder charges are identical. Obviously a typo.

Now obviously any experienced reloader will know something is wrong the second he sees those velocities, but I figured I'd post just in case--not everybody is experienced. We all have to start somewhere...and loading a 165 powder charge behind a 180 could be a nasty way to start this hobby!

Be safe!

Even where it was not over the max load for 180 grs, the 165 gr starting load was very near max. Given all the idiosyncrasies of individual rifles that can be too close.

There are a LOT of problems with the new Barnes manual. I am really shocked. Even the figures are frequently incorrect. Knowledgeable shooters can spot this stuff instantly, but if you don't already know it can be potentially dangerous. The load data for the 7 mm Rem Mag 160 gr XLC is completely insane. I am seriously tempted to write Barnes and demand a corrected edition. Supposedly they were going to post the errors on their website and although the text appears it is not a live link. I suspect that they are finding more mistakes than they initially expected.

Later
Brent

165 grain bullets in .30-06
2400 From 27.2 grains to 29.2 grains
AA-2015 From 42.7 grains to 48.0 grains
AA-2230 From 42.0 grains to 46.0 grains
AA-2460 From 44.2 grains to 49.9 grains
AA-2495 From 44.0 grains to 48.0 grains
AA-2520 From 42.0 grains to 49.3 grains
AA-2700 From 49.0 grains to 54.0 grains
AA-3100 From 54.0 grains to 59.0 grains
AA-4064 From 46.5 grains to 51.5 grains
AA-4350 From 54.0 grains to 59.0 grains
Benchmark From 46.7 grains to 47.7 grains
Big Game From 51.7 grains to 56.8 grains
BL-C From 39.8 grains to 51.0 grains
H-205 From 52.2 grains to 55.8 grains
H-322 From 40.0 grains to 44.0 grains
H-335 From 39.5 grains to 49.0 grains
H-380 From 42.8 grains to 56.5 grains
H-414 From 50.0 grains to 59.6 grains
H-4350 From 50.1 grains to 60.0 grains
H-450 From 50.7 grains to 60.0 grains
H-4831 From 51.6 grains to 61.5 grains
H-4895 From 40.0 grains to 48.0 grains
IMR-3031 From 40.5 grains to 48.0 grains
IMR-4064 From 42.1 grains to 50.5 grains
IMR-4320 From 42.9 grains to 51.0 grains
IMR-4350 From 48.2 grains to 59.0 grains
IMR-4831 From 50.1 grains to 61.0 grains
IMR-4895 From 41.6 grains to 48.5 grains
IMR-7828 From 58.0 grains to 62.0 grains
MRP From 53.6 grains to 58.8 grains
N-140 From 45.5 grains to 50.2 grains
N-150 From 47.2 grains to 52.1 grains
N-160 From 55.6 grains to 61.7 grains
N-540 From 45.4 grains to 51.9 grains
N-550 From 49.6 grains to 55.0 grains
RL-12 From 41.0 grains to 51.1 grains
RL-15 From 47.0 grains to 51.8 grains
RL-19 From 52.5 grains to 62.1 grains
RL-22 From 58.0 grains to 63.0 grains
RL-7 From 34.0 grains to 40.5 grains
SR-4759 From 21.0 grains to 25.0 grains
TAC From 44.5 grains to 48.5 grains
Varget From 49.5 grains to 50.5 grains
W-748 From 42.6 grains to 52.0 grains
W-760 From 49.3 grains to 59.5 grains
W-785 From 57.0 grains to 61.2 grains
XMP-5744 From 29.0 grains to 38.5 grains

180 grain bullets in .30-06
2400 From 26.2 grains to 28.2 grains
AA-2015 From 40.5 grains to 44.5 grains
AA-2230 From 40.0 grains to 44.0 grains
AA-2460 From 41.8 grains to 45.8 grains
AA-2495 From 41.5 grains to 45.5 grains
AA-2520 From 40.0 grains to 47.3 grains
AA-2700 From 50.0 grains to 55.0 grains
AA-3100 From 53.5 grains to 59.8 grains
AA-4064 From 44.5 grains to 48.5 grains
AA-4350 From 52.0 grains to 57.0 grains
Benchmark From 45.0 grains to 46.0 grains
BL-C From 43.2 grains to 48.5 grains
H-1000 From 61.0 grains to 64.0 grains
H-205 From 51.4 grains to 56.3 grains
H-322 From 38.0 grains to 42.0 grains
H-335 From 38.7 grains to 46.0 grains
H-380 From 44.3 grains to 53.0 grains
H-414 From 47.5 grains to 55.5 grains
H-4350 From 49.6 grains to 58.0 grains
H-450 From 51.4 grains to 59.0 grains
H-4831 From 50.7 grains to 61.0 grains
H-4895 From 40.5 grains to 46.0 grains
H-870 From 63.0 grains to 64.0 grains
IMR-3031 From 39.5 grains to 46.2 grains
IMR-4064 From 42.9 grains to 50.0 grains
IMR-4198 From 26.0 grains to 30.0 grains
IMR-4320 From 40.7 grains to 49.0 grains
IMR-4350 From 48.7 grains to 56.0 grains
IMR-4831 From 49.7 grains to 59.2 grains
IMR-4895 From 41.0 grains to 47.5 grains
MRP From 54.3 grains to 58.7 grains
N-160 From 52.0 grains to 57.6 grains
N-550 From 48.6 grains to 54.5 grains
RL-12 From 38.0 grains to 49.6 grains
RL-15 From 47.0 grains to 50.0 grains
RL-19 From 52.0 grains to 60.6 grains
RL-22 From 54.5 grains to 62.0 grains
RL-7 From 36.8 grains to 39.8 grains
TAC From 41.2 grains to 47.6 grains
Varget From 46.0 grains to 47.0 grains
W-748 From 42.2 grains to 48.0 grains
W-760 From 45.0 grains to 56.6 grains
W-785 From 55.0 grains to 56.9 grains
XMP-5744 From 29.5 grains to 37.0 grains

Forgot to mention, all loads with Winchester WLR primer.

[This message has been edited by ricciardelli (edited 12-09-2001).]

For the money I paid I don't feel like stapling corrections into my book.

Apparently Barnes quality control issues extend throughout their operation, from bullets to books.

------------------
www.rifleshooter.com

Al, I have gotten about four different sets of corrected data to date, here are the first two I got:
------------------------------
Bill,

The velocities are just flat out wrong. We don't know where they came from.
However, the powder charges are correct. I have attached the correct data
for your review. They will also be posted on our Web site this week.

We apologize for this error and the confusion it has caused. Thank you for
contacting us directly regarding your concerns.

Sincerely,

Kami Hall
Customer Service
Barnes Bullets
email@barnesbullets.com
800.574.9200
801.756.4222
Fax:801.756.2465
PO Box 215 American Fork, UT 84003
750 N 2600 W Lindon, UT 84042

Set yourself up to reload!
--------------------------------
Bill,

Unfortunately, there were some errors on the 7mm Rem Mag 140 and 160 XLC. As
far as we can tell, the velocities listed are wrong, but the charges are
right. I have attached the correct data for your review. The blue
supplemental data was an estimate only. I would recommend going by this
attachment.

Sincerely,

Kami Hall
Customer Service
Barnes Bullets
email@barnesbullets.com
800.574.9200
801.756.4222
---------------------------

I sent them an email the other day and said I wanted my money back. The thing that really pisses me off about manual number 3 is a bought a copy as a gift for my friend in Argentina. He does not have access to the resources we do and I had to call him and tell him to avoid using the manual.

[This message has been edited by Bill (edited 12-09-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Bill (edited 12-09-2001).]

BUT......,

I have heard (too) many reports from people I respect about failures. I have wondered about the errors in manual #2, incorrect drawings, dimensions, etc.

Now, they can't even be bothered to print the correct numbers in a new manual.

I'm giving up until they clean house and get their act together. With Gerard's bullets and Failsafes, I don't need them, and I certainly lost the trust I used to have.

The straw that broke the camel's back, for sure. JMO, Dutch.

I bought their first version of their ballistic software. When they came out with a second version I asked about an upgrade. I was informed that I had to buy an entire new package at full retail.

I waited until version 2.0 hit the market and once again asked if there was an update available, or a "special" price for existing customers. I was again told, "No".

They are now up to version 2.08, and still want a user to buy the complete package...

As for their bullets...quite some time ago I ordered 5 boxes of their 6mm, 85 grain BT bullets. Each box was 4% short on numbers! Seems they were packing them by "weight", and I was informed that they "never make that kind of error"...and that I must have mis-counted!

I had the same problem with Remington on their .429 bullets, but at least they offered to send me a free box. I didn't wnat the bullets, I just wanted to let them know they had a packing problem.

They have always been out for me, I got my stash of X bullets from a friend who gave me about 12 boxes of the things.

I still remeber when I ran one of their 6mm bullets throught my 243 and it turned my half minute gun into a 2 foot shooter. They were convinced I had doe something wrong.

I don't get this attitude from Federal, Hornandy, Siearra, Speer, GS and others. That is where I will continue bringing my business.

Honestly, though I have only taken one head pf big game with them, I am not the slightest bit impressed.

[This message has been edited by Bill (edited 12-09-2001).]

Bill,

I am sure you can imagine our disappointment also with the errors printed in
our No. 3 Manual. We realize there are disgruntled customers, especially
after the long wait involved. We extend our warmest apologies.

If you purchased your manual from us, we will be more than happy to replace
it when the reprint becomes available. I will keep your email in a file, or
you may call me at that time.

If you would like the correct data for any four tables that are incorrect, I
have that also. The corrections will be posted on our Web site shortly.
Besides these four tables, all of our actual data is safe and according to
SAAMI spec's.

Sincerely,

Kami Hall
Customer Service
Barnes Bullets
email@barnesbullets.com
800.574.9200
801.756.4222
Fax:801.756.2465
PO Box 215 American Fork, UT 84003
750 N 2600 W Lindon, UT 84042

Set yourself up to reload!

Take their data with more than a grain of salt...

Antonio

Take a look at the blue sheets that come with the XLC bullets and the load data in the new manual. VERY different.

I asked barnes what they thought and they replied:

"The blue
supplemental data was an estimate only."

Who knows, I wasn't a fan any way. I just kept getting sucked back in hanging around this place with all the people that love them.

If you look at the data for any caliber, you'll notice they list the XCL's with a few more grains of powder than the same weight standard X's. That has been my experience in the past comparing standard X's (especially flat bases) to regular bullets. They develope lots of pressure. It wouldn't surprise me if they're loading their XLC's to higher pressures to hype the coating a bit, but the fact that some of the slower powders listed with the standards aren't even listed with the XLC's tells me there really is something to this coating. Maybe not 200 FPS, but maybe it reduces their friction level back down to what normal bullets have.

While I do agree that these errors are inexcusible (no matter whose fault it was, the buck has to stop with the name on the front of the manual), I don't think they justify calling into question their entire process for generating the data in the manual.

Nobody that has owned a business for more than 5 minutes in this "liability age" would think going to the expense of aquiring the data for, writing and publishing an 800 page reloading manual without having the slightest clue as to what the pressures were and what the margin of safety was would be anything other than suicide for that business. Unless, of course, they limited the loads to about 75% max (as some manuals have in the past) but these loads obviously are not (even the correct ones ).

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jon A:

If you look at the data for any caliber, you'll notice they list the XCL's with a few more grains of powder than the same weight standard X's.

---

I tried their XLC bullets in .270 and .338 and was hugely disappointed. The accuracy was horrendous (3 MOA). The powder charges they list were absurd and I could not get anywhere close to their maxmums without pressure signs.

Given their spotty record on game and lousy accuracy, I'd never use them.

I have loaded my 300 with the 180XLC to within 1 gr of their max before I got any pressure indications. Velocity was also very good. Some trouble in grouping. I found that I need to fire about 10-12 as fouling shots. Groups went from 2.5-3" down to .5-1" and so far have stayed there. A good bore cleaning and I have to start over. If your gun is like this, it is a real PIA to shoot the XLC's.

MFH

As for their bullets, I use them and can hardily recomend you give them a try. They don't work for all the guns I own but, neither do nosler partitions, grand slams etc. I have many first hand hunting experiences where I have seen barnes kill like lightning. I have never seen a failure.
I don't know who screwed up that reloading manual so bad, and I wish they would have come out with corrections quicker but, I for one will continue to support the company who's bullets have made my hunts a great success. END OF MY STORY.