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A chilling recent event has persuaded me to carry my .357 in the woods as protection against cougar attack. (There was a stalking incident in which, fortunately, the individual was not attacked, but two cougars did come within 30 yards of her. I was several hundred yards away carrying a .380, and caught the reports on radio . . . talk about feeling helpless . . .) My gun, a Smith and Wesson 686 with a 2.5 in barrel, would be the only gun I carried, and I was wondering if anyone has suggestions as to the best load for it. I want a stopper -- something that if I'm being charged, will both penetrate and expand. So I'm thinking about the Nosler 180 grain Partition and the Barnes 125 or 140 grain XPB. Thanks. | ||
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My first choice would be 12GA. For a 357, 140 grainers driven by a stiff dose of W-296. Free men should not be subjected to permits, paperwork and taxation in order to carry any firearm. NRA Benefactor | |||
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we have now a few mountain lion sightings in our area, been thinking about that a time or two. I suspect if I was to prepare for a cat attack of animal of that size I would opt for the Barnes but in a semi-auto if it could feed them bullets reliably. Have a new Glock 20 in my hands on the 25th and will load 200 XTP's and 200 WFNGC(beartooth)-more concerned about 2 legged critters than I am bears or......... a stopper .....mmmmmh, better with the Barnes I suspect--who is a cat hunter here? they would have the first hand knowledge. | |||
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Besides humans, the most people killed in the USA by animals is by deer! The animal that kills the second most number of humans is the honey bee!! You have to go a very long ways down the line to find any record of a human killed by a cougar! So if one wants to carry protection then why not carry something to protect against the most likely killer....other humans!!! May I suggest the charter arms .44 special or the .45 LC or the .40 S&W or the .45 auto...something .40 cal and larger! It'll also work on cougar as they're not truly hard to kill.....but then your chances of winning the lottery are better than the chances of using in a cougar attack! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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Never killed a cougar myself, but they are cats. One article in Outdoor Life, as I recall, had a hunter with a minature chiachiua -only-chasing them down and finishing them, treed, with a .22 RF pistol... As you can tell from any housecat, they are not heavy bodied animals. I would lean toward the Glaser concept. Even that .380 with Glaser or Magsafe bee hive rounds should mess up a cats insides and end its trouble making... Reputation on humans is pretty good and humans are usually not too hard bodied either. Obviously, the trick is hitting with short barrel at close range and adrenalin pumping... Next would be the large hollow points. Federal Hydro shock. -??- Again, you want energy transfer against a light bodied animal. I am reminded of the old home remedy, the .38 Special hollow base wadcutter reversed... 12 guage and bird shot is nice, but not welcome in most parks... oh well. As suggested, the large diameters achieve this more reliabily being larger to start and not depending on expansion. Then there is the over penetration that the bee hives avoid. Your call. Obviously a reliable arm whatever you choose and confidence in it. One African article had an interesting point. Most cats are programmed to "pounce." In Africa a test of man hood had the warrior holding the long bladed spear and covered by a buffalo hide shield and provoking a lion to pounce. Done right, the cat landed on the spear impaling itself. Protection from death throes were the responsibility of the shield... Long bladed screwdriver wouldn't be a bad thing to have along. And not too objectionable in most parks. Happy holidays. luck. | |||
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I don't think that a cougar is any harder to kill than a human being. I'd look at loads that would be appropriate for personal defense from humans that will expand reliably. Because you are carrying a short barreled pistol, I'd look at some of the faster powders. I'd also consider loading to +P levels rather than 357 mag to permit a faster second shot. It's going to be fast and close. Kudude | |||
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The good news is that the 357 is a great cartridge, the bad news is that fight-stoppers are generally .44 or .45 calibre. Your 686 is a good package that can easily be carried all day and I'd recommend 158 grain lead semi-wadcutters. I'm not one to place false hope on pistol bullet expansion to end trouble, but experience has taught me that Keith type semi-wadcutters cut nice round holes and penetrate to vital areas. Pistol bullets that expand penetrate less and are sensitive to velocity -something you'll not have with a 2 1/2" barrel. | |||
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Considering the avg size of cougar I would pick 145 gr silver tips a bit more penetration then the 125s but they expand good in those size animials. The 125 gr also have a very good record as a stopper. A very large cat would be 200lb well with in the capabilty of a 357. Most reports seem to tend to lean to cougars of the smaller size 80 to 100 lbs or so. Thats size even 22 lr would work well. buckshot where do you get your info on 44 and 45 being better fight stoppers for that size game. The 357 has a great record as a fight stopper. In humans it leads almost anything else and thats with 125 gr hollow pts. | |||
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I'm well aware of the 357s awesome reputation on the human animal, but we're talking about cats here and IMO that means Keith type semi-wadcutters that are heavy, cut big round holes, and don't depend on expansion for effectiveness. They will work from any angle and they aren't velocity dependent. As for the fight stopping .44 and .45 -they will do everything the 357 can do and then some. My buddy's .44 magnum will cut a hole plumb thru a cat from any angle and has on many occasions. This is a good thing! | |||
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Here in Oregon, all the liberal minded voters (the majority) decided that hunting cats with dogs is a terrible thing and voted it down. Since that time cougars have been multiplying like rats and cougar encounters are becoming more common and they don't seem to be all that afraid of people. It is just a matter of time until it becomes a major problem here.. I have a 4" 686 and I use factory .357 158gr SWC's when I'm in the woods. They hit hard and penetrate. I vote for the 158gr SWC. Why do they call it common sense, when it is so uncommon?? | |||
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Just to set the record straight...you don't have to go that far back to find fatal mountain attacks...there have been three (3) humans killed by mountain lions in the last 13 years in California. There were two (2) more fatalities in Colorado in the last 15 years. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Back in the 60's, with a shotgun, a teen age relative shot a house can in a tree. He says he blew the bottom half off, but the top half could still climb the tree. I have shot allot of barnyard animals and the wild critters that attack them, and body shots don't do much for a while. Head and neck shots are instantaneous. That is why 80% of the handgun attacks in the US are survived, while 90 some percent of the suicide gun shots are fatal. It is the difference between body shot(s) and a head shot. My handgun defense strategy is to put some 45 cal holes in the lungs and then out run them. | |||
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I would pick a heavy bullet designed for max penetration. I do not put much stock in "attack statistics". Even if only ONE person is attacked by a cat next year, the one in 4 billion chance odds do not seem very comforting to the ONE being chewed. Who knows, that 357 might just come in handy for a couple of other reasons. PS, carry a couple of extra speed loaders, just in case. I have had to shoot a couple of dogs off of me, head shots work, sometimes it even takes more than one, if the first hit is around the fringes. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I personally would go with an expansive bullet such as a 158 XTP or 158 Sierra JHP launched at max velocity. Those penetrate well on wild boar as well as give descent expansion. Blue Dot and Lil' Gun will both give you great velocity. I prefer Win or Fed primers as the CCIs are too hard in the S+Ws if you don't have a heavy spring. Good Luck Reloader | |||
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Many years ago I did considerable testing with a 4" K frame S&W .357. Have long since lost the data, but this is general my memory of the results. Turned out then that the 110 gr bullets then in vogue simply were not penetrating, but were detonating on the surface. The heaviest bullets I tested were 158 gr SPs that they zipped through the stack of 1" boards. Surprisingly enough the 125 sp's that set the standard for law enforcement use gave the best balanced performance. They gave good penetration and while doing maximum damage. Certainly would not use that bullet for bear ... but cats are not bear. My carry gun in the woods is a 3" 41 Magnum round butt 657. I usually alternate 210 XTPs and 210 Rem SPs. I prefer this to any .357. But if you are only concerned about cats, the .357 snubby with 125s is probably OK. Mike -------------- DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ... Knifemaker, http://www.mstarling.com | |||
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mountain lions are not large. one that goes 150 lbs. is pretty big. I have never heard of them being particularly tough or dangerous to hunt (unless you are the dog). any quality 125 - 158 gr hp bullet would be good enough for me. fed fusions, hornady XTP, win silvertips, or rem SJHPs, all should be just fine. the noise from a 380 would probably do it. I have seen one in the wild, it didn't kill the person 30 feet away (and unaware). they are only dangerous when they decide to kill humans, and even then they are not too difficult to dissuade. an old lady beat one off of her husband not too long ago. http://www.nbc11.com/news/10844812/detail.html http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks_ca.html | |||
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I had a couple of close encounters with one in my suburban northeast Tennessee neighborhood last May and June. He didn't mess with me, but was probably following me out of curiosity the first time. The second, I interrupted a chase as he was about to catch a small doe. He stopped at the edge of the woods and the doe escaped. Spooked me badly both times. I've carried either a .45 Auto or .44 Mag when walking at night since. (A coworker who got a good look at the lion called the TWRA and got their stock answer that it was impossible because mountain lions don't exist here. Said she probably saw a groundhog! That was good for a laugh.) "A cheerful heart is good medicine." | |||
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Hi I wonder if 410 rifles slug will do the job with cougars? i have a M6scout in 22lr/410 which shoots 5x 410 slus into 1 inches at 25 meters and with heavier fredaral and brenneke slugs the penetration is very good. regards yes Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy; its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. | |||
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Not too many years ago we had a 5 year old boy killed and partially consumed in his back yard by a cougar. If I was carrying that 357 I'd want a 158 or heavier cast SWC as fast as I could push it. | |||
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Cougar sightings are becoming more frequent every year. Montana had 5-6 bow hunters attacked by grizzlys. Wild animal attacks are certainly a real possibility, A cougar isn't a large animal & rather thin skinned. I would stoke my 2 1/2" 357mag w/ 140grXTP or 145grWWSTHP loaded hot. They'll also do fine against 2 legged molesters too. LIFE IS NOT A SPECTATOR'S SPORT! | |||
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I'm gonna guess that the Florida sub species of cougar doesn't come close to topping out at any 150# so let's say a guessimate of 60#. Maybe 75. IMO you ought to be carrying at least one of those 50 calibre handguns with 400 or 450 grain hollow point bullets. Be sure and use one of the boutique bullets as I'm sure an ordinary cup and core bullet would just bounce off of a cat. They're tough. How was the woman able to determine that she was indeed being "stalked" instead of just happening upon a couple of cougars that were out taking the air? Why would a cougar "charge" you? In Miami wouldn't you be in much more peril of running up on a drug deal or blundering upon a drug stash guarded by an attack trained dog or, as posted, a swarm of african bees? | |||
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Stillbeeman. Probably not too hard to determine. Back in the late mid 70s in Nevada, there were two incients of people being stalked by Mountain Lions. The first was a bowhunter during bow season who had to kill the lion. Details were sketchy but the lion was shot at close range. The other incident involved me as I was out scouting for deer prior to the season when it occurred. I was carrying a .243 in case I saw a coyote as I wanted to judge the quality of the fur should I come across one. I was working my way up a rather narrow canyon when I got the feeling I was being watched. About 50 feet away, a lion was crouched on a rock looking at me. I hollered and threw a rock at it and it went away. As I continued up the canyon I chanced to look back and the lion was back, only much closer. I yelled again and threw another rock at it which hit the cat and it ran away. When I again looked back on my back trail, the cat way about ten feet away and crouched to spring. I shot it. I left and reported it to Fish & Game who took it and did an autopsy. I later talked to the Game Warden who told me that the at was a young female and had absolutely nothing in her stomach. What was intersting was he also told me that the one the bow hunter killed was also female and had a totally empty stomach. I don't think that cat was just following me out of curiosity, and if it was, it sure got that cat killed. Paul B. | |||
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Maybe they ran out of fresh venison? Maybe they are tired of two legged critters trespassing on their hunting grounds, or have been darted with pcp one too many times and are just nuts. | |||
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One around here would find plenty of deer. I noticed that the neighborhood deer's routines were badly disrupted during the period the lion was active around here last summer. An interesting followup to this: Two days ago I talked to a young lady who lives three houses up from me. (I rarely see these people and hadn't had any meaningful conversations with them until quite recently.) She told me that the mailman had told her last summer that he saw a mountain lion run across her front yard from the vicinity of the garage! I'm guessing big kitties like Meow Mix, too. She said that other neighbors had also told her about the lion, I think probably because I'd told them. Her house is right up against the foot of the wooded ridge the lion chased a deer down (nearly colliding with me at the bottom as I walked at night), and on top of which my wife heard a "scream like a woman being killed" on two occasions. I think there are two good reasons for the wildlife resources agents to deny the possibility of these cats around here: 1) If they're acknowledged to be around, they're an endangered species that the agency is required to monitor and protect. They're unlikely to get additional funding and manpower. 2) If a cat takes livestock, the agency's going to get called to do something about it. It's one thing to set out a trap, catch and move a black bear that's getting into garbage cans. It's another thing entirely to deal with a big cat, of an endangered species. Much easier for them to say to the public "You saw a groundhog, and stray dogs killed your calf." And 3) If the cats are around, they really don't want to arouse yahoos to go out and try to kill them, or panic the public when the actual risk of someone being attacked is remote. Nobody's reported an attack around here yet. (I've been cautioning parents of small kids living around our wooded areas, though.) "A cheerful heart is good medicine." | |||
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It's a good thing she didn't recognize your voice.  I had a need to answer the call of nature in the swamp one day and got that done with out any problem. This spot was maybe 1/4 mile from my buddy's home and we ended up there for lunch. We were watching his girls play with his cats and dogs when all of a sudden a loud squall(might have been Ricochet) came from the swamp over where I'd been. Cats and dogs went into a complete panic and got as close to anyone they could find. Even the girls started crying(they were very young). We figured it was a Wildcat that had found where I'd been. But my buddy eventually saw a large Cougar from a Stand in heavy fog early one morning. ----- I carry 2 Snake Dancers and 4-158gr SPs in my Revolver and would just use the 158gr SPs on the BIG Cat. | |||
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 A stiff charge behind a 180grain HP seems about right.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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That particular scream wasn't me. But I have a pretty good hog-calling voice. (Actually, from calling kitties to supper.) When I used to ride bicycles around the countryside with a group, once we realized that a young lady in the group had taken a wrong turn and gotten lost. I called for her, she heard me a mile away and turned back, catching up shortly as we waited. "A cheerful heart is good medicine." | |||
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I feel pretty sure if a Cougar and a Deer were both charging down a hill toward "me" there would be a good bit of noise(of all kinds ). I really would not have that on my "Ten Most Wanted Events To Do" List. I try my best to be very quiet when stealthing around the woods and swamps. But I feel sure that hearing that headed my way would shift me into a totally different mode.  ----- By the way, to toss a bit more Cat Trivia in, I do not ever remember "hearing" a Wildcat move in the woods, even when the leaves were like potato chips. I'll be calling with a Fawn in Distress or Rabbit being Tormented Call and when I'd see the Cats they are normally sitting on their haunches within 25yds, just looking around. I'm "guessing" the BIG Cats are fairly quiet too, but have not had one real close to me that I was aware of. | |||
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What I heard coming at me down the side of the ridge was a fast moving chase, zigzagging. The noise was probably coming from the panicked doe. I wasn't happy. Wasn't a bit happy walking away down that dark lonely street after I spoke to the doe, who almost smacked into me and stopped a yard away, and she scrambled around me up the opposite ridge leaving me alone with what was silently chasing her. (He'd stopped on seeing me, right at the edge of the woods maybe 25 feet away.) Every hair on my body stood up. I kept my head on a swivel and kept talking calmly to the woods where he'd stopped. Felt like I was walking through The Valley of the Shadow of Death for 2-3 minutes till I got out of that hollow and back on my lit up section of street. When you're alone, unarmed in the dark with a big cat watching you, you don't feel like you're at the top of the food chain. "A cheerful heart is good medicine." | |||
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Here in Mo. until recent our lovely C.C would tell you there are none here.That is until they started turning up dead every deer season .Now they have changed their tune , we do have them , and they have suddenly become protected. We have seen them from time to time since the 80's so we knew it was B.S. I don't go mushroom hunting without the hand cannon.(Ruger Blackhawk .41mag). For your .357 , I recommend the 158gr SWC or HP with a strong load of W-296 or H110. Hope this helps you out. "Big bullets","For those who like to eat right up to the hole" | |||
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I guided for mountain lions for 10 years in NW Colorado. We killed 6 to 10 a year, so I have seen quite a few killed with handgun, rifle, and bow. With a good heart/lung shot, it doesn't take much to kill one. However, a wounded one can go a long way. I think one reason they have a reputation for being easy to kill is that when you have one in a tree you can generally make a fairly precise shot. That could be difficult if you are shooting in defense. Also, the muscle on a carnivore is more dense than on a herbivore. For these reasons, I would recommend a heavy JSP or SWC going as fast as possible. When I was guiding I carried a Ruger Blackhawk in .45 Colt and it worked well but sometimes it could take 10-30 seconds for the cat to die. That seems like an eternity when you are in the middle of a ground fight. It is common for mountain lions to follow human, or any other, tracks. They are curious just like any other cat. Usually the don't cause a problem. I am more concerned about the 2-legged varmints running loose. | |||
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Remington 125gr JHC load The old "FBI" load. cougars aren't as big as bank robbers and don't shoot back. If I were worried about cougar I'd carry what I carry in blackbear country while berry picking: my Colt Delta in 10mm (Cocked&Locked as is my usual practice) first five rounds in the Mag (and the one in the chamber) 170Gr Eldorado Hollow points, the last three in the bottom of the mag some of my carefully hoarded original Norma 200gr FMJ's Anything the Eldorado's don't make a sufficient mess of to persuade it to be elsewhere the 200gr's will blow through like it was made of smoke. Nothing says "stop" like a 200gr bullet at 1200fps.... I AM the biggest, baddest thing in the berry patch even without the pistol, but mother nature didn't provide me with claws or the ability to leap 15feet from a standing start. AD If I provoke you into thinking then I've done my good deed for the day! Those who manage to provoke themselves into other activities have only themselves to blame. *We Band of 45-70er's* 35 year Life Member of the NRA NRA Life Member since 1984 | |||
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