in the search for the best powder combo for my 22-250 I have tried several combos, the latest was IMR 4007 a brand new powder that lists a load with a 50grn bullet at nearly 4000fps, I bought this new powder with the hopes of getting a little more velocity and still be in safe pressure levels. so I load up the max charge of 40.2grns and a 50grn berger flat base, I am an honest 400 fps lower than what the book says it tested out as, my combo has an average seating depth, ie nothing seated too far out or in. other powders that didn't live up are bench mark and Accurate 2015, RL 15 and h380 don't have a problem netting me close to advertised velocities in this particular 22-250, I know the gun has a 22" barrel I could deal with a loss of 150fps but 400 fps less than tested book is absolutly ridiculous, could the newer powders just be marketing hype??

Many, many years ago, when I got my first chrono, I broke a lot of .22-250 shooters hearts when they shot their handloads over it. They thought they were shooting 3750 fps, they were almost never 3500 fps with 55's. I think it is a characteristic of the cartridge or the loading data.

It is sort of like the check is in the mail, I'll respect you in the morning or Hi, I am from the government and I am here to help. It is a lot of hype.

I don't let a load manual tell me the velocity I am getting.. I left my chronograph tell me that...

Hodgdon claims a load with their 95 grain V Max and Benchmark.. that in EACH 260 I have tried it in.. I am blowing primers...

Load manuals are for reference, not gospel.. and also should not be relied upon for velocity results... a chronograph is the only thing that really tells you that.. everything else is for academic reference..

Every rifle is a "Law Unto Itself", I have a DPMS 1X8 Ar15 Barrel that produces 300 fps more than published loads. In my experience, the 22-250, has almost always ben at or higher than published velocities. Seafire says it all, a chronograph is a must for the "Serious" shooter/reloader.

In your case, I would keep on increasing the load, until I either reached the published velocity, or the pressures tell me to stop. I will say though, I have no experience with the powder you have listed.

Jerry

also you must remember usually they are using
a test gun with a longer barrel than yours..

quote:

Originally posted by seafire2:
I don't let a load manual tell me the velocity I am getting.. I left my chronograph tell me that...

Hodgdon claims a load with their 95 grain V Max and Benchmark.. that in EACH 260 I have tried it in.. I am blowing primers...

Load manuals are for reference, not gospel.. and also should not be relied upon for velocity results... a chronograph is the only thing that really tells you that.. everything else is for academic reference..

I have dashed a few dreams of my buddies with the actual loads being fired across my chorongraph. With the prices they can be obtained at nowdays it would be a good idea for anyone with a lot of interest in shooting and reloading to pick one up.

I had a friend of mine that shot the same reloads through two 22-250's that he had. One was a 26" Ruger and the other a 22" Winchester. The Winchester with the 22" tube was about 75-100 fps faster than the Ruger!!!!

Many times the differences that pop up in these rifles is to the sizing of the chamber and the acutal bore diameter. Even though we have all kinds of CAD systems to help in the manufacturing, there are still cases where the first chamber cut with a particular tool is a small difference from the last chamber cut with the tool before the tool is replaced or resharpened. I believe that such variances account for the performance that you are looking at.

If you chamber is larger than others then perhaps in the pursuit of higher velocity you can use more powder or even a powder with a slight increase in the burn rate.

I've had good luck in my .223's and 22-250's with RL-7 using lighter bullets, 40g and 50g respectively, and loads that are quite a bit higher than book but well within the handling ability of that particular rifle. I had one .223 that I had to back off one grain of powder when compared to the other to maintain safe operating pressures.

The last thought is that your current rifle is one that won't meet your expectations as to velocity and accuracy and you may need to move on to another rifle or manufacturer.

Just some thoughts that I hope are helpful. Let us know how it works out for you and good luck.

I don't have any experience with IMR 4007, but perhaps it needs a longer barrel to achieve the listed velocity.

I can't recall any load manuals who use a 22" barrel in 22-250 Rem.
Figure about 50fps loss for every 1" less barrel length than that used in testing. Then there's the bullet. Hodgdon, who markets IMR powders, use Sierra 50 grain bullets for their results. Bergers could be slower.

Perhaps your rifle has had a lot of ammo down the barrel? Your leade could be burned out. Try seating the bullet out farther, if possible.

Can you show us a plot of charge weight vs. chronograph speed when you worked up this 4007 load? Were you getting the same speed increase per grain or half grain of powder increase across the board? Or did you just dump 40.2 grains in and test only that max load?

I am aware of all the variables, I know I have a 22" barrel which the load was likely tested with a 24 or possibly even a 26" tube, but come on 400 fps?!?! you gotta be kidding me, I have had similar issues like I said with accurate 2015 in the 223 and benchmark in a caliber I can't remember, and those where 24" barrels. also a max load of RL 15 or h380 produces expected velocities with the same bullets in the same gun, the only thing left to look at is the powder

This will give you an idea of different barrels and different length barrels and velocity
#1 Ruger 77MKII 22" 3483fps SS sporter
#2 Ruger 77MKII 26" 3751 fps Grey Target model

These were fired on the same day, 55 gr v-max, 38.0 gr H380, wlr primer, pmc brass, 70 deg f

that's 268 fps or 67fps per inch

Here recently I have found A LOT OF PUBLISHED DATA that does not achieve the velocities claimed in the newer manuals. It is quite likely, at least in some situations, that the folks who printed the manuals got the velocities they claimed from THEIR RIFLE. But all rifles are individauls, and you cannot expect yours to perform the same as theirs.

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
I am aware of all the variables, I know I have a 22" barrel which the load was likely tested with a 24 or possibly even a 26" tube, but come on 400 fps?!?! you gotta be kidding me, I have had similar issues like I said with accurate 2015 in the 223 and benchmark in a caliber I can't remember, and those where 24" barrels. also a max load of RL 15 or h380 produces expected velocities with the same bullets in the same gun, the only thing left to look at is the powder

I don't think that I've ever achieved the velocity in a loading manual when I've duplicated the parameters that they stated in the book. It makes you wonder how factual that data is or how much of it has been marketing. I've alway had to increase the powder charge above their state max to come close to the published data. The only manuals that I've come closier to where those publish about 35-40 years ago before the litigious nature of consumer information came to be.

Teancum
Don't blame the data creators because your rifle has a slophole chamber in it (that's the only advantage to testing velocity with a "real" rifle, the "test" chamber is probably just as sloppy as yours is).

I've seen a 270fps INCREASE in velocity by chopping 1 inch off of the barrel. How? We cut 1 " off the breach end and recut the chamber/throat from grossly oversize to minimum SAMMI spec. BTW, the final chamber spits them out within 0.3% of what Nosler says they got with the same combination of components (but different lot numbers).

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:
Teancum
Don't blame the data creators because your rifle has a slophole chamber in it (that's the only advantage to testing velocity with a "real" rifle, the "test" chamber is probably just as sloppy as yours is).

I've seen a 270fps INCREASE in velocity by chopping 1 inch off of the barrel. How? We cut 1 " off the breach end and recut the chamber/throat from grossly oversize to minimum SAMMI spec. BTW, the final chamber spits them out within 0.3% of what Nosler says they got with the same combination of components (but different lot numbers).

"Slopehole chamber"??????? that's a new term. Seems as though I've been cursed with about 25-30 rifles all with "Slopehole chambers". None of those rifles were able to match loading manual performance levels with the same components as mentioned in the book. I wonder what the probability is on series of events like that???????

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
None of those rifles were able to match loading manual performance levels with the same components as mentioned in the book. I wonder what the probability is on series of events like that???????

High. A typical, "slophole chamber" mass produced sporter is not an industrial pressure barrel, nor is it a gun that manufacturers would use to develop data that would be wise for them to publish - because data arrived at in such a gun would produce excess pressure in a precision, tight spec gun. That's why it's common not to achieve the same velocity with the same load as listed in published data in an off the rack rifle. The common belief that modern loading manuals have significant fudge factors built into them for liability reasons is a fairy tale.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

quote:

Originally posted by cummins cowboy:
I am aware of all the variables, I know I have a 22" barrel which the load was likely tested with a 24 or possibly even a 26" tube, but come on 400 fps?!?! you gotta be kidding me,

You've gotta be kidding me. I've seen the same charge of DIFFERENT LOTS of the SAME POWDER, all other components the same, make 200 fps difference when fired back to back in the same rifle on the same day. Lot to lot density variance is a fact of life, and it's one of the reasons that you have to work back up when you change a component - and switching to a new lot of the same powder is changing a component. You have to watch them all, but I've found IMR powders to vary more than others. That's why you don't do what your original post made it sound like you did - go straight to a max listed charge without working up.

In your situation, you're dealing with a different lot of same powder than the publisher used, in a barrel that may be as much as 4" shorter, and a gun that was almost certainly not built to the specs that the publisher's test gun was. You're badly underestimating the significance of those variables. They can make a difference of 400 fps a snap.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

[QUOTE] The common belief that modern loading manuals have significant fudge factors built into them for liability reasons is a fairy tale.
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If you think that attorneys and decided court cases have not had a significant impact on the shooting/reloading industry I would invite you to read on the lovely and tasteful warnings rollmark on the sides of most of the barrels of the shooters that we buy now.

I don't think I've talked to an attorney yet, who is a shooter/hunter who would say that the legal impact is not being felt in this industry.

Perhaps my experience is vastly different than yours?????????????????

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
[QUOTE] The common belief that modern loading manuals have significant fudge factors built into them for liability reasons is a fairy tale.
----------------------------------------------
If you think that attorneys and decided court cases have not had a significant impact on the shooting/reloading industry I would invite you to read on the lovely and tasteful warnings rollmark on the sides of most of the barrels of the shooters that we buy now.

I don't think I've talked to an attorney yet, who is a shooter/hunter who would say that the legal impact is not being felt in this industry.

Perhaps my experience is vastly different than yours?????????????????

I didn't say that it wasn't. I said that the result with respect to loading data is not what you imply.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

"Back in the day" they judged pressure by reading tea leaves and velocity by how hard it kicked. The number of "testers" that used pressure guns was quite small (and there is evidence that at least one lab reused there copper crusher pellets!)

With the advent of the Conformal Peizo-electric system, the errors of the older CUP system became more apparent, and as the "new" CP system was less expensive than the old CUP system, more labs did pressure testing.
Than came the strain gauge systems that are in common usage today. These respond with even more sensitivity, and cost much less to use.

As the pressure measuring systems have become less expensive and more sensitive to pressure changes, it also became apparent that a lot of the "old faithful" loads were in fact exceeding SAMMI spec, and not by just a small amount.

That's where your "lawyer loads" fairy tail cames from. Not from Lawyers, but from better testing methods.

quote:

Originally posted by Tailgunner:
"Back in the day" they judged pressure by reading tea leaves and velocity by how hard it kicked. The number of "testers" that used pressure guns was quite small (and there is evidence that at least one lab reused there copper crusher pellets!)

With the advent of the Conformal Peizo-electric system, the errors of the older CUP system became more apparent, and as the "new" CP system was less expensive than the old CUP system, more labs did pressure testing.
Than came the strain gauge systems that are in common usage today. These respond with even more sensitivity, and cost much less to use.

As the pressure measuring systems have become less expensive and more sensitive to pressure changes, it also became apparent that a lot of the "old faithful" loads were in fact exceeding SAMMI spec, and not by just a small amount.

That's where your "lawyer loads" fairy tail cames from. Not from Lawyers, but from better testing methods.

Exactly right. It's surprising how many reloaders don't realize how much technology has changed, or how fast, or that that's why data from current manuals often looks so different from the old.

The "liability padding" in most current reloading manuals is in the instructions to safe reloading and load development procedures, not the published data.

It's past time to retire the old manuals (some of which aren't very old) and data developed using tarot card and ouija board technology.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Below is the most confused mess of garbage in the thread. Any Beginners reading this stuff would be much better off to listen to posters who make a bit of sense.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
...I have dashed a few dreams of my buddies with the actual loads being fired across my chorongraph. With the prices they can be obtained at nowdays it would be a good idea for anyone with a lot of interest in shooting and reloading to pick one up.

So, here it seems the poster is telling everyone that a chronograph will "dash a few dreams"(obviously talking about Velocity). But, that it is a "good idea" to get one.

quote:

I had a friend of mine that shot the same reloads through two 22-250's that he had. One was a 26" Ruger and the other a 22" Winchester. The Winchester with the 22" tube was about 75-100 fps faster than the Ruger!!!!

This is typical for all rifles and indicates how totally unreliable the Velocity is for any real benefit.

quote:

...If you chamber is larger than others then perhaps in the pursuit of higher velocity you can use more powder or even a powder with a slight increase in the burn rate.

And you are simply supposed to know your Chamber is larger?

quote:

I've had good luck in my .223's and 22-250's with RL-7 using lighter bullets, 40g and 50g respectively, and loads that are quite a bit higher than book but well within the handling ability of that particular rifle.

This would be interesting to find out "why" the poster thought the over-loads were SAFE in his rifle. Perhaps it is a 45-70 Bolt Action.

Pitiful!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Below is the most confused mess of garbage in the thread. Any Beginners reading this stuff would be much better off to listen to posters who make a bit of sense.

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:
...I have dashed a few dreams of my buddies with the actual loads being fired across my chorongraph. With the prices they can be obtained at nowdays it would be a good idea for anyone with a lot of interest in shooting and reloading to pick one up.

So, here it seems the poster is telling everyone that a chronograph will "dash a few dreams"(obviously talking about Velocity). But, that it is a "good idea" to get one.

quote:

I had a friend of mine that shot the same reloads through two 22-250's that he had. One was a 26" Ruger and the other a 22" Winchester. The Winchester with the 22" tube was about 75-100 fps faster than the Ruger!!!!

This is typical for all rifles and indicates how totally unreliable the Velocity is for any real benefit.

quote:

...If you chamber is larger than others then perhaps in the pursuit of higher velocity you can use more powder or even a powder with a slight increase in the burn rate.

And you are simply supposed to know your Chamber is larger?

quote:

I've had good luck in my .223's and 22-250's with RL-7 using lighter bullets, 40g and 50g respectively, and loads that are quite a bit higher than book but well within the handling ability of that particular rifle.

This would be interesting to find out "why" the poster thought the over-loads were SAFE in his rifle. Perhaps it is a 45-70 Bolt Action.

Pitiful!

Dear Pitiful, sorry Hot Core!!

Thanks for your critique and let me help you understand a little better and to avoid confusing the beginners.

I think everyone should have a chronograph to tell them the actual velocity of their loads instead of having them guess from the loads that they are trying to duplicate from a loading manual. Most overestimate their velocity and that may effect the performance of the load in the field. That shouldn't be hard to understand!!!

The thread on the 2 22-250's. I don't get your objection to that one. You need to go back and reread it slower this time and you'll see the situation of differenct chamber sizes accounting for a slighly higher velocity from a shorter barrel. Has nothing to do with the benefit of velocity but points out that chamber size can impact velocity.

Chamber larger? Again another victim of a quick read. Slow down and you'll see that it may be due to a chamber/bore size difference after other things have been eliminated.

Overloads safe in his rifle?? Surely you are familiar with reading the pressure signs of loads in your rifle, Correct? If not there is alot of information on this website to help you. Seems prudent to monitor the signs of pressure as we work up our loads using hard extraction, loose primer pockets, flattened primer pockets,etc. as well as strain guage readings. I hope that you are folowing those steps for your own safety as well as any beginners who read the postings on this board.

I would summarize by saying if you read s-l-o-w-e-r things will make more sense to you and read the whole comment. Hopefully it will all become clearer. Thanks again.