I am looking for information on using 870 powder for a variety of large caliber rifles. I have some info and load data I have compiled myself but is there a site that might have this powder listed?
Thanks for the help.
Frank

Hey Frank, I would guess that Hodgdon's site would be your best source. I've not heard of a dedicated H870 load data site.

However, the reason I'm responding is to let you in on a bit of information that came from Bruce Hodgdon. A long time ago I used a lot of H870 in some Magnum cartridges. As the bullet weight is reduced, the H870 just doesn't burn as "clean" which is true for a lot of Powders.

But, the H870 leaves a residue that can be extremely frustrating to remove from your Bore. Scrubbing `till you are blue in the face doesn't cut it either. Fortunately Mr. Hodgdon passed along the tip of making a Paste using "Bon Ami" kitchen cleanser and what ever your favorite Bore Cleaner happens to be. Use a Patch wrapped around a Brush, apply the Paste, give the Bore 10 strokes, push through some clean patches and wash the residue out with a bit more Bore Cleaner. Lightly oil or grease your Bore and you are rid of the "Residue".

I always used Fed-215s and Rem 9 1/2Ms with it and never had ignition problems.

It is a good powder with a slow predictable Pressure Increase as you increase the Load.

Thanks for the reply. Unfortunately Hodgdon has dropped 870. It was a military surplus and the military has moved on to something else. I guess I will have to buy a copy of the old H. catalog.
Would someone be willing tosell me one?
Thanks
Frank

Hodgdon never made H870. They've run out of the stock they had. H870 is military surplus WC870, an Olin Ball Powder made for loading 20mm cannon cartridges. Since it was made in the same time frame as the Ball powders that caused the fouling problems in the early M16s, I suspect the problem is the same, too much residual calcium carbonate in the powder. The usual description is of a very hard deposit in the corners of the rifling grooves that's difficult to scrub out and doesn't come out with the usual cleaning solvents. If I encountered this problem, the first thing I'd try is swabbing out the bore with white vinegar, followed by the usual cleaning. I haven't encountered it, though, as I use the rather similar surplus WC860 and WC872. My batches are of more recent manufacture; Olin took care of the excess lime problem when it was identified circa 1965.

my experince with 870?

heh.. they sell it right next to kingsford... saying it burns slower than mequite but faster than hicory

LOL
jeffe

Ricochet, thanks for that extra bit of information. I had never tried Vinegar. I have been using the 870 for awhile now and did know it was a surplus canon powder. I am trying to take some shortcuts to find starting loads for some of my larger caliber rifles. It is hardly ever listed so it can't be too popular. I do find it very good for use with heavy loads in my 338UM and would like to use it in others.
I may have to switch to one of the more common powders.
Frank

I have data for around 231 different loads using H-870 on my site.

WAIT A MINUTE < !--color-->

Vinegar and ANY LEAD is a VERY VERY VERY VERY bad idea. sure, this was used as an invisible ink during the revolutionary war... but you are now being exposed to disolved lead, that can be absorbed by the skin...

This is NOT a myth...

jeffe

Hodgdon�s 25th and 26th Editions list data for H-870 with cartridges they feel it is appropriate to use in�BCB

Hot Core,
nothign taken bad at all.. just wanted to warn that vinegar and lead are BAD BAD BAD..

As for lead, and I do shoot the occasional cast bullet.. if you call ordering by the 500 light shooting...

My favorite way to "Get the lead out" is to shoot until I notice a change in groups, run 2 to 4 jacketed (briger bullets worked best, aslas) bullets down the bore, and then use an amonia based clear.. hoppes or sweets... barnes X copper solvent doesn't work well for lead, though that's my favorite bore wipe.

Do a quick search on vinegar, lead, posion.... i THINK it make lead carbonate, which is readily water soluable... I have long forgotten the term for absorbs through skin, but this is one of those.
jeffe

Hey Steve thanks for posting. I had lost your link. Your site is really great.
I won't have to buy the Hodgdon manual.
Frank

You might also consider trying H-5010 to replace H-870 in some cases, as well as some of the other milsurps.

I used some 5010 in a 6.5-300Wby and the rate came in almost exactly the same as my mainstay, H-870.

AA8700 supposedly is very close as well.

I don't know if the make up of 870 has changed but around 1967 Iwas using it in a 6mmX270 improved I had made.The original accuracy was great but got worse no matter how much it was cleaned.I later found out it had hard deposits in it when a buddy of mine discovered it in his rifle. I haven't used it since and have advised others not to use it. roger

look through the cast bullet site. They use 860, 870 and 5010 by the 8lb jug. I'm sure they can tell you how they clean their rifles. I use 860 in 308, 30-06, 8mm, 7.5-55, and 38-55 and swear by it. Shoot mostly cast bullets, though.

Frank, if you do try the vinegar, let me know how it wroks.

Yes, vinegar will dissolve lead oxide or carbonate. It makes lead acetate, once known as "sugar of lead," for its sweet taste and water solubility. It is indeed toxic. Don't eat or drink it. The same is true for the nondissolved lead crud (that we typically call "carbon," but it's full of lead oxide) scrubbed from your bore with any cleaning method. No need to panic. Use a little common sense and you won't get in trouble. A long used, very effective method for removing lead fouling from bores involves the use of a mixture of hydrogen peroxide and vinegar. The peroxide oxidizes the lead, and the vinegar dissolves the lead oxide. It's in "Hatcher's Notebook" and many other references.

Oh yeah, lead absorbed through the skin; the tetraethyl lead formerly used in most gasoline (now seldom encountered) and other organic forms of lead will indeed readily penetrate the skin. Lead salts in aqueous solution don't penetrate skin so well. If you're worried about it, wear some plain rubber gloves. I'll just minimize my hand contact with the stuff and wash my hands before they get close to my eyes, nose or mouth.

Hey Jeff and Ricochet, Thank you all! I did learn something today and that is always nice. Guess I'll stick with my Hoppe's BenchRest and Brass Brushes as a final scrub on the pistols/revolvers.

Oh yes, Jeff, I do the cylinder full of Jacketed Bullets behind a few cylinders of Lead Bullets too. It does help a good bit and warms it up for the Bore Cleaner.

...

For both you guys, I also use the "Wipe-Away" Cloths a good bit too. Are they killing me with their chemicals? If it will take 30 years to kill me, don't worry about it.

I do not think I will be trying the Vinegar solution. I am trying to reduce my contact with any forms of lead or any heavy metals for that matter. I know. It is crazy to think I can eliminated these and still continue shooting but I have to reduce what I can. I generally wear rubber gloves called thicksters, available from paint and body shops, when cleaning my rifles. I have not yet begun to wear a respirator but will be doing that soon I think. I am in contact with some very heavy stuff on a daily basis as part of my job and part of my business (darkroom work) and if I can keep my hobby a little safer I think I will.

This thread provided some really great information. Thanks.
Frank