I RECENTLY FIRED SOME MANUFACTURED 257 ROBERTS AMMO IN MY 257 ACKLEY AND HAD SEVERAL SEPERATE . 2 COMPLETE SEPERATIONS AND 6 OR SO HAD OPEN RINGS 3/4 THE WAY AROUND THE WALL. ALL RINGS WERE 11/16 " ABOVE THE RIM .THERE WERE 4 ROUNDS THAT DID NOT FIRE AT ALL. I HAVE READ GUN MAG ARTICLES THAT STATED YOU CAN USE FACTORY ROUNDS IN A PINCH BUT THIS DFINITELY 'AINT ' WORKIN FOR ME ... ADVICE PLEASE ....

quote:

I HAVE READ GUN MAG ARTICLES THAT STATED YOU CAN USE FACTORY ROUNDS IN A PINCH BUT THIS DFINITELY 'AINT ' WORKIN FOR ME ... ADVICE PLEASE ....

You should be able to fire the standard case in the AI chamber....it seems your gunsmith has left you a lot of extra headspace for the chamber.....

Take it back to him and ask him to fix it...

"Good News" and "Bad News...

The "good news" is that you have more than standard headspace which translates into more powder capacity and more "heat" for your burner... So you are that little bit closer to the .25/'06...

The "bad news" is, as stated, the chamber is not the "tight,tight headspace" chamber that Mr. A recommended so that ALL factory ammo would headspace elsewhere, say the base of the neck, and fireform properly...

You might find a brand of ammo that will fireform properly... it is a pain.

Since you have a semi wildcat anyway... Use light loads to "blow out" factory cases and then load carefully... Make the best of the situation.

OR if this is a high dollar investment and firing factories is important to you, the gunsmith that represented this as an "IMP" that will fire factories satisfactorily... "blew it." You have every right to satisfaction. You can take it back and etc. Worth it? Your call. Luck.

What you have is the incorrect method of building an AI. Many smiths simply run an AI reamer into a factory rifle. If you do not set the barrel back you end up with excess space for factory ammo. You really have two options. Simply ony fire AI cases in your rifle. Set the die up for your chamber load and be happy. If you want to fire factory ammo you need to set the barrel back and rechamber. Since Factory Roberts loads are ususally at around 54,000+/- unless you go +P (those are still light) I would simply fire AI and be happy.

Ditto what ramrod said.

iiranger and ranrod are correct, BUT ....

Whatyou need is a way to hold the factory cartridges forward in the chamber so you can fire form them without seperations.

It won't be pretty but try this: put a few factory loads in a vise and squeeze them into a slight oval in the fore part. That will make the case a jam fit into the chamber, holding it back so it will be safe to fire.

If the "modified" round chambers easy, you haven't squeezed it enough. Squeeze it again until you have some significant difficulty closing the bolt. That tight fit will keep the case from moving forward under the firing pin's impact. Firing will reshape your case normally.

Afterwards, be careful with FL sizing, don't move the shoulder back more than maybe a couple of thou.

I have a roberts ackley that was built by a drunkard gunsmith. He screwed up the entire rifle project EXCEPT the chamber!

It chambers and fires factory ammo just fine and fireforms it into pretty little AI brass.

Maybe your gunsmith should start drinking heavily?

All kidding aside, have him fix it, it "aint right".

Another gunsmith, and I use that term loosely, that didn't do what Parker said. When setting the headspace on an AI chamber the GO gage for the parent cartridge becomes the NO-GO gage for the AI chamber. Your rifle has excessive headspace, and if it doesn't have open sights any competent gunsmith can remove the barrel and set it back enough to headspace correctly, although where the caliber is stamped will end up under the stock, or worse on the opposite side upside down. If it does have open sights the barrel can be set back one full thread, so the sights index correctly, and the chamber reamed to correct depth, either method will work, but I would choose number two so caliber stamped on barrel will end up in same the place. Make your gunsmith fix it, he might learn something!

Hill Country Rifles built a .280 Imp for me that had headspace problems and refused to fix it so another smith just turned it back to headspace properly. The engraving is in the bottom of the barrel channel now but I don't care.

If you have it rechambered make sure the barrel is turned back far enough that a step can't be cut in you chamber by a reamer that has slightly different dimensions.

Kevin

If you have any consideration for the poor fellow who will someday own that rifle after you're dead and gone, (maybe your son, grandson, or great grandson) take it back to the butcher who made it and insist that it be fixed. Don't leave it as it is. Sure, there are ways to get around a bad Ackley chamber - most of them have been mentioned here. But you'll only be fooling yourself into thinking that everything is OK. The next guy won't know until it's too late.

ONE case seperation would have been enough for me to STOP. You went way too far.

JMHO

Ray

quote:

... consideration for the poor fellow who will someday own that rifle after you're dead and gone, ...

That's a very good point!

It's the same reason I don't want to do a chambering in my No4. that could accommodate a factory round of a higher pressure than is good for it! (I'm thinking 220 Swift on a 303 Brit case - somehow the 220 Swift factory must not be able to chamber!)

In 2001 I foolishly put a 257 Roberts case into the chamber as a headspace gauge while cutting a .257 Roberts Ackley improved chamber, Lothar Walther barrel, VZ24.
I made it so the bolt just closed with a little force.
While forming brass, the case wanted to separate just behind the shoulder.
I did hundreds of experiments to determine how to form brass.
I have resolved it best for me to use 10 gr of any pistol powder, fill the rest of the case with instant cream of wheat, no bullet, fire upwards or seal the mouth of the case with Ivory soap. I use a 50,000 psi breakdown lubricant on the brass-chamber interface [Lyman moly bore cream, but moly grease would do.] This half forms the shoulder. The next load can be a full power 257RAI load, with full .5moa accuracy, and will fully form the shoulder.

We chambered 3 more LW barrels with that reamer, and we chambered them with .004" interference between the 257 Roberts factory brass and the chamber. To chamber a 257 Roberts case in a proper 257RAI chamber means to bear down on the bolt handle to crush the sharp chamber neck-shoulder junction circle into the brass at the base of the neck.

Those next 3 rifles can form brass in one shot.

What does it all mean?
A) The firing pin can push 257R brass .004" into an easy fit 257RAI chamber. The brass will then grab the walls and stretch it's way back to the bolt face and possibly separate.
B) The firing pin cannot push forward 257R brass in a tight fit 257RAI chamber that just crushed .004" when the bolt handle was forced down hard. So the brass does not stretch.

THANKS EVERYONE FOR YOUR REPLY'S .. I SPOKE TO THE GUNSMITH THAT CHAMBERED THE BARREL ( HE'S IN WYO. AND I'M IN KY.. HE SUGGESTED STARTING WITH NEW BRASS AND SEATING THE BULLET OUT TO MEET THE LANDS FOR A SNUG FIT AND A FULL CHARGE OF POWDER FOR A 257 ROBERTS... YOU GUYS HAVE GOT ME MORE THAN A LITTLE CONCERNED ...ESPECIALLY THE COMMENT ABOUT SOMEONE NEW TO THE RIFLE

any gunsmith worth his salt would have said to "return it to me and I'll fix it and pay the shipping both ways"

He's expecting you to compensate for his error.....

If he don't volunteer to fix it (but you have to ask him to) at his cost I wouldn't ever send him a nickel again

Hissuggestion however....

quote:

STARTING WITH NEW BRASS AND SEATING THE BULLET OUT TO MEET THE LANDS

will work I believe if you choose to do so.

Seems like everybody has got it covered for you. From what I have read in PO's books and most places you don't have to seat the bullet out into the lands in a proper AI chamber because in a proper AI chamber there should be a few thou. crush fit so the case can't move with new un fire formed brass to hold it in the proper place while fire forming. Seems like that is the way P O designed it so anyone could form AI brass. This is how I read it in most text but I might be wrong, I was once.

Steve E.......

quote:

HE SUGGESTED STARTING WITH NEW BRASS AND SEATING THE BULLET OUT TO MEET THE LANDS FOR A SNUG FIT AND A FULL CHARGE OF POWDER FOR A 257 ROBERTS

That would be a way to allow the bullet to provide headspace and then you have formed brass for your chamber. AS WE HAVE STATED THIS SHOULD NEVER BE REQUIRED FOR AN AI!!!!!!Factory brass will be a crush fit in a properly chambered AI rifle. He has given you a work around like we have. While it will work for you as others have said what about the next guy.

As vapodog stated any proper smith would correct his own error free of charge. Your smith took the easy way out like I've seen several do. I've seen many get away with it on CRF rifles like a 98 because the extractor holds the case and provides headspace. Sure doens't make it right.

I didn't realize you had it done and knew the smith. Have him fix his darn mistake. Don't settle for a work around.

It's sort of handy to be able to fire std Roberts ammo in Your AI. As all have stated send it back and get it fixed.

When Hart Rifle Bbls built my M-70 AI they did it right (as usual) and it easily fireforms factory ammo into perfect AI cases.

Few years ago I grabbed the wrong AI ammo leaving for an antelope hunt in eastern MT. For whatever reason .280 AI doesn't work in a .257 Robt's AI. Luckily I noticed my error on the way, stopped and bought some factory roberts and all went well.


Hope Ya get things straightened out as the 257 Robt's AI is a cool little ctg.

FN in MT

HERE IS A LITLE MORE INFO ON MY 257. I WENT OUT TO MY SHOP TONIGHT TO CHECK OUT THE BRASS OF THE FIRST 20 ROUNDS FIRED IN THE RIFLE WHEN IT CAME FROM THE GUNSMITH SEVERAL MONTHS AGO... THEY WERE "HORNADY LIGHT MAGNUMS +p" .. NONE SHOW ANY PRESSURE. THEY LOOK PERFECT. THAT'S WHY I WAS SO SHOCKED TO SEE THIS HAPPEN LAST FIDAY. THE AMMO I WAS SHOOTING FRIDAY WAS "HORNADY CUSTOM". COULD THERE BE THAT MUCH DIFFERNCE IN THE TWO TYPES OF AMMO ? THE GUN CAME AT A VERY BUSY TIME FOR ME AND THIS WAS THE SECOND TIME I HAD IT OUT... THANKS FOR EVERYONES COMMENTS...

quote:

HERE IS A LITLE MORE INFO ON MY 257. I WENT OUT TO MY SHOP TONIGHT TO CHECK OUT THE BRASS OF THE FIRST 20 ROUNDS FIRED IN THE RIFLE WHEN IT CAME FROM THE GUNSMITH SEVERAL MONTHS AGO... THEY WERE "HORNADY LIGHT MAGNUMS +p" ..

You had seperation due to excess headspace not pressure. Since he told you the way to fix your problem was to seat the bullet into the lands I would really question what if anything that light magnum brass is telling you. Did he use factory ammo or just the brass and use the bullet to headspace? Did he get factory ammo and pull the bullet forward? The fact that he told you to seat the bullet long to solve your headspace issue raises a LARGE RED FLAG to me.

A PROPER AI CHAMBER WILL HANDLE ANY FACTORY ROBERTS AMMO.

quote:

A PROPER AI CHAMBER WILL HANDLE ANY FACTORY ROBERTS AMMO.

Yes, I agree. Return it for correction

Any factory round should headspace properly in your rifle as the neck/shoulder junction should be several thousandths shorter than the factory round to achieve a crush fit as stated above. If you chamber a piece of factory brass you can see where the chamber engraves a ring there. You feel it too as the bolt will have a tight fit. You ought to read Ackley's Handbook, the section on headspace in particular, so as to better understand this and bring a better explanation to your smith.

Do not accept that you just need to seat the bullets into the rifling. That does not fix the problem which is excessive headspace.

My 257 AI chambered by wespac requires considerable force to close the bolt on virgin brass. Never lost a single case while fireforming.
Lyle