hi all,

i have seen several discussions on this board about wanting to meet certain velocities. everyone wants to get a faster velocity. i am wondering why. i thought that the reason to hand load was to match the velocity to twist rate, etc etc to get an accurate round. could someone explain the need for a really faster round vs and accurate round.

thanks
lojack

Speed KILLS

I develop my hunting loads to be as accurate as possible but with as much velocity as is safe in the rifle.If one load is much more accurate than all others but is 50fps slower I will still use that load.If two loads are equal as far as velocity I use the one producing the most velocity.

lojack,

I load for accuracy, but have certain minimum speeds depending on the purpose and cartridge.

Higher velocity means flatter trajectory, less wind deflection, and higher retained energy at the target. Flatter trajectory and less wind deflection makes hitting your target easier....

Regards, Bill

I load for both. Accuracy comes first, but velocity a close second. I mean if I am getting clover leafs with my 300RUM but only getting 2900fps out of a 180gr bullet, I am bothered.

I have hand loaded for 30, 35 years. Memory is dim on the exact year I started. I have not fired a factory load in that time. In all that time, I have never achieves the best accuracy at max load and hence max velocity. Not one time. By the same token, I have rarely achieved the best accuracy at the start load. Rarely, but it has happened. Velocity isn't all. I'll trade velocity for accuracy any day.

As far as matching bullet weight to twist, I wouldn't spend 5 seconds worrying about that, as long as your twist is fast enough.

For the rest of it, you can't miss'm fast enough to kill'm. JMO, Dutch.

I have been loading my own ammo since 1954. The reason I started was to be able to shoot more. Since that time, the only reason I have fired ANY factory ammo was to get cases to reload! I pursued max velocity for years, and found that while oftentimes accuracy is better at less than MAX, this IS NOT ALWAYS TRUE, EITHER!!. In addition, it is often possible to get extremely fine accuracy at top velocities, believe it or not!! What does high velocity do for you? Well, it flattens your trajectory somewhat, but that's all. And usually not too much, either! However, some rounds are grossly underloaded for use in modern arms, such as the 7X57mm Mauser, the .45/70, 8X57mm, etc. The ONLY way you will ever discover what such rounds are really capable of is by working up to top loads on your own, because none of the published data tells you the truth about such cartridges. You have to learn this on your own, with the idividual rifle you own!! And, additionally, a lot of factory ammo doesn't perform as we might be led to expect, reading the published ballistics charts. The good ol' .30/'06 is an example of this! here again you are pretty much on your own to find out what YOUR rifle will do!!

[ 07-18-2003, 22:38: Message edited by: eldeguello ]

well

i load for accuracy. and found that in some of my rifles the faster isnt better. groups have opened up some at the higher speeds. actually the best load is about 5 grains short of max. that is in 223. so higher velocity can help in hunting and long distance shooting. humm.

It's definetly a balancing act. I also try to get the highest vel. w/ the best accuracy. If my 7mmDakota shoots one hole groups but gives me .280 vel. then I would just shoot ny .280. Then again I wouldn't hunt w/ a load that was 150-200fps faster & giving me 3MOA. Like most things in life, you compromise.

Define accuracy. Minute of deerhide, or cover a five shot group with a quarter?

Some guys sound like they insist on being able to take a deers eye out @200yds, then shoot for center of ribs in a 12 x 9 inch target! Is sub MOA accuracy really that important? Yes if you're shooting deer at 5-600 yds! In theory, a inch @100 group is a 6 " group at 600. If you know the trajectory well enough, then that's still plenty accurate.

If a load one step below max gives a 3/4" group, but the max is slightly over 1" but a round uniform group and the chrono tells me it's a low ES and SD, then it's what i'm going to use.

gotta agree with Dutch again. You gotta hit 'em before you can kill 'em. +200fps is not going to give you any significant advantage in trajectory nor letalness. Once you exceed say 3000fps, you're just blowing excess energy out the other side of the animal.

I rarely have to make a shot of more than 200 yards. After I had to replace two heavy barrels in the same year I started to rethink this issue. I probably shoot a lot more at the range than in the field. My .22-250 will crank up 4000fps. with a light bullet, but it will kill cleanly at 3200fps. My .243Win. will hit 3600fps with a 70gr. bullet, but my little .222Rem. kills them just as dead at 3000. I don't shoot what you would call reduced loads, but I don't crank them up anymore either. Even on larger deer sized game I just don't feel it's required. I want to shoot the animal, not through him. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

I work for the fastest load that will shoot accurately. Between the two, I lean toward accuracy. In a hunting gun, I'm happy if I can consistently get 1/2 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards, and I can do that with hunting bullets in both of my bolt action hunting rifles.

Is that kind of accuracy really useful? I think so. You don't need it to hit a broadside deer at sensible ranges, but last season I neckshot a turkey at 120 yards with my .270. I wouldn't have tried that shot with most other "deer rifles."

My rifles arent real big powder pushers, but I do like velocity. Energy and trajectory are the main reasons why and can be very usefull on a hunt. I figure a standard load at its best will take care of anything if I do my part, Magnum shooters have more wiggle room where velocity is concerned. I take a rather simple approach to load development. I more or less set a goal that I want to reach in both reguards, if either one is unsatisfactory then Ill keep at it with different powders or ?? Accuracy is a huge plus and with 99% of my rifles it is I who needs to work on my own accuracy to become worthy of the guns capabilities, not the other way around.
I reload because I want it all, peak performance in all aspects, excellent bullets and last but not least, one shot kills.

These answers show a lot of experience and wisdom. From Edeguello ( get an easier handle to spell brother!) to Fred 338 to Beeman, et al.

I have found that one has to match a particular powder and bullet weight ( if you want to get fancy and get max accuracy).

I have some rifles that accuracy does increase at 10 % below max velocity. Others that actually have it tighten up with certain bullet weights and powder, and increased velocity.

Two examples:

7 x 57 Ruger. If you could cover your groups with a dollar bill at 100 yds it was a good day for that rifle. It was definitely a candidate waiting for me to decide what caliber to rebarrel it to. Then one day, just happend to grab THAT 7 X 57 out of the gun cabinet, as opposed to one of the other two. Testing some load with 40 grains of IMR 3031 with generic 175 grain Remington bulk bullets. The group turned out to be coverable with a dime or so at 100 yds.
Once I put my eyes back in their places and tried it again, same thing. The third group opened up to be coverable by a quarter.

Loaded some more, same results. Chronographing the load can last, just to see where it was it.
Needless to say as long as I own this rifle, it will shoot nothing but 175 grain bullets with 40 grains of IMR 3031.

The second one was a Walmart purchased Remington ADL 243, black synthetic stock. No matter what went down the tube, 3, 4, 5 inch groups at 100 yds. I always maintain, the factories dump their second string stuff on Walmarts,and Kmarts of the world.

Well one day playing with 60 grain Sierras, I tried a batch of powders for my Winchester heavy barreled 243. For the heck of it, I also took the Remington with me to the range and was playing with it while the Winchester was cooling down.

Got to a load of 50 grains of H380 with the 60 grain Sierra. For the critics, this is 4 grains over their max listed in their manual. However, when the group turned out to be one hole at 100 yds, from a rifle that normally you could cover your groups with USA TODAY, I was shocked. Rushed home and reloaded the same cases, and a few more. Same results. Checked how easy primers went in, just as stiff as new each time.
Then I chronograped the load, 4000 fps plus.

Few guys at the range asked about it as they saw the groups I was getting. Instantly a few wise asses had to start giving me crap about the load being so much over max in the Sierra manual.
The primers going in very tightly like new, got me a response I was just lucky.

Well Nosler comes out with their manual, and for a 55 grain bullet, they list the H 380 load has being 53 grains, and a velocity of 4000 plus.
Anyway, when I was vindicated, all the critics could do was walk away. Admitting they opened their mouth before they had done any experimenting to which to base their 2 cents on, was not going to happen. I've noticed that common denominator with a lot of critics lately.

Anyway, handloading we have the ability to tailor the loads that fit that rifle best ( if that rifle has a favorite quirk load, they don't tell us, we have to find it out).

But also check the trajectory charts. I am loading up some 243 cases to take prairie dog shooting in Montana for next month. I am loading a batch of 75 grain hollowpoints for me and my friends nephew. We try to keep shots at 300 yds or less on the property we are shooting on. Well, the difference in trajectory at 300 yds, with a muzzle velocity of 3400 vs 3100 was about an inch or less at the 300 yds.

There is also a noticable difference in recoil, even tho these are varmint weight barrels. I bring the recoil up, as a reference as I am sure it is indicative of much higher pressure at 3400 fps. Although within specs, it will just mean more barrel heat, barrel erosion and shooter fatigue. Is that worth and inch difference in trajectory at 300 yds?

Maybe to some, but not in our books.

[ 07-19-2003, 23:50: Message edited by: seafire ]

For big game performance, I rate the order of importance as 1. Accuracy, 2. Bullet Performance, 3. Speed. I am willing to sacrifice a small amount of accuracy for an improvement in Bullet performance and speed.

I go for accuracy, confidence and comfort. It looks like I am in a distinct minority here. I try to find the SLOWEST; most accurate load that will definitely do the job. If hunting from a tree stand; the last thing I want is to shoot a 300 RUM at a 120 pound deer standing 65 yards away in semi thick Alabama woods ( alot of the deer in AL. are about 120 lbs fully grown ). I shoot alot of 180 (or heavier ) grain bullets from a 30-06 at 1700-1800 fps. My rifle will shoot these @ sub 0.400 three shot groups; I don't worry about recoil shaking me loose from the tree; and with a good bullet it's going to go through. This gives me the confidence to shoot when the time comes.

Give me pin point accuracy and I am happy. I shoot several big and fast rifles, some have accuracy on the top end, some on the low end, I don't care where the accuracy is as long as it is there. Good shooting.

My favorite .270 is always most accurate with a max load.