I have a Encore 209x50magum muzzleloader useing 100gr pyrodex pellets,Knight sabots,44cal 180xtp bullets,That I can not get it to group 100yr.is my bullet to light or do I need to change powder or go to 45cal bullet.

They are light for that twist. Try 100gr Pyrodex and a 300gr Barnes and I garuntee you will be happy as well be ready for deer, elk, etc. I also had good results with 295HP Powerbelts, but want good penetration on bigger stuff. Saw 2-elk shot with these this year, very effective! Good shoot'n!

SHORTMAG,

There are a few rifles out there that just don't like black powder substitute. You may have found one, unfortunately. If the above, as recommended by "hunting1" isn't the answer you may try another round of tests with REAL black powder.

Many folks have trouble with the .429 bullets so you may want to try the .452 diameter as you mentioned. I never got to test the Barnes bullet but I would imagine that it would be very difficult to beat for hunting purposes. You may want to up your charge but that's up to you. I used a "double sabot" method in a Savage ML-10II that worked quite well as the charge increased. Basically you cut the base off of another sabot (or else the base of a 28 ga. shotgun wad (cheaper)) and seat the partial sabot over the charge followed by a couple of 50 cal wool wads followed by your bullet/sabot combo. This helps maintain the integrity of your bullet/sabot and allow better grip on rifling, etc., translating to increased accuracy.

While many seem to frown upon the Savage you will find a lot of very useful information at: <www.dream-tools.com/tools/messages.mv?submit+savagemuzzleloader>

Good luck,

Reed

I got the gun befoure muzzleloading season and only had a week or so to play with it.I did get it to a hit piepan 100yr befoure hunting but that will not fly with me.I did take a doe with it in muzzleloading.But I will have to play with it and find what it likes.Thinks for the advise. GOOD HUNTING!!!

Try Precision Bullet sabots, I shoot a 200 grain in a KNight Disc at 2300 fps with excellent accuracy. They are at Precisionbullet.com

SHORTMAG,
I shoot 300XTP's with a T/C Mag sabot and 3 50gr Pyrodex pellets in my Encore and they shoot great, I've tryed the 300 Barns also but they will not shoot as well as the XTP's, the 250 Barnes will keyhole sometimes in my barrel with 100 grain loads.
Albert

I have 2 and they both shot a different load. I use the T/C mag bullets with the red sabots. I use only the 45 caliber bullets. One load is 300 gr. bullet with (2) 50 gr. pellets , while the other shoots the 250 gr. bullet and (3) 50 gr pellets. I figure they were designed for the rifle. see bullets @
http://www.tcarms.com/mlaccessories/projectiles/ptx.html

I`ve had fair luck 1-1.75" for 5 rds with the old tc break-aways and 300gr sierra jfp,over 3 clean shot pellets,I heard they were discontinued but hope that is just a rumor,I also like the power belts over 2 50gr clean shots,I use the heaviest ones,I tried some 405gr saboted lead btsp`s from a maker I cannot remember and they gave me in my rifle sub moa groups with the 3 pellet load,I also did not have much luck with pyrodex pellets,and loose charges of black (120 gr) gave me blown primers,I use w-209`s so it was not powder getting inside the primer causing the problem.one warning the 405gr with 150 gr of clean shots had a terrible recoil,I`m glad I had my vari-x-3 on it as the longer eye relief saved me from a nasty scope cut,hit my glasses but no damage.keep shooting and you`ll work it out.I love mine now and can`t wait for more calibers when I can afford them.good luck,e-mail me if I can be of any help.bigbelly@i2k.com

I got me some 300gr xpt and some 250gr speer and some clean shot that i'm gone to try when this weather brakes.Does it matter what sabot you use or could that be some of my problem.

Shortmag, I started shooting these years ago when they were called Black Belts. buy big bore express http://www.powerbeltbullets.com/
They shoot better than any sabot or conical I have tried...even using the heavy ones out of 1 in 48 twist barrels. They are also much easier to load than sabots. I am a little concerned though I dont see my favorite 405grain hollow points listed on the new page.
Good Luck

Dave,

Have you ever had any trouble with the bullet coming apart from the belt when loaded? It's not a terribly strong joint and I've heard of other folks not using them for that reason. My choice ended up being the Hornady with MMP sabots but the Precision bullets are pretty nice too...just more expensive.

Thanks in advance,

Reed

Shortmag,
Examine the sabots after firing. If they're deformed or tear at all, get another sabot-bullet combination. I promise you that the sabot is tearing in the gun, and that can throw the bullet off a foot or more at 20 yards(I put a bullet through my chronograph finding this out). I had problems with my 209x50 Encore and was about ready to put it on Ebay. A friend suggested trying Barnes, and it suddenly turned into the most accurate barrel I have ever owned.
As a note, I demand that my Muzzleloader shoot 10 or more shots using 150 grains of pyrodex pellets without cleaning, all without tearing the sabot. Barnes are the only sabots I have found that can take that punishment (although I haven't tried anything else the last two years).
I recommend trying the Barnes before doing anything else.
Good Luck

XTP's work great in the Encore, but sabots will affect accuracy quite a bit. Try changing sabots to another brand like MMP or T/C. Also try a bullet starter that goes into the hollow point. These bullets can start in a little crooked otherwise.

Reed, Ive never had the belt detach from the bullet while LOADING. They will come apart if you have to pull one out. However it's no problem to get the belt out of your barrel after you pull the bullet.
Dave

I have some 295 belted bullets that i'm going to try.But was wanting to order some Barns bullets and some MMP sabots. What Barns bullet would you try first.Thanks!!!

I use the Barnes MZ 250 grain, but I heard the 300 grain ones are just as good. You can pick up a pack of 10 from Wally World for about 8 bucks. I have also heard good things about the MMP sabots, but I haven't tried them. Unless they have made big improvements in the last couple of years, don't waste you money on TC's sabots.
What ever you try, check the fired sabots (particularily out of a dirty barrel), and if they are torn or deformed at all, move on. I tend to preach this message too much, but it cost me a Chronograph to learn.
Good Luck

I have had my Encore 209X50 Mag for two years know and love it. It is by far the most accurate muzzleloder that I have ever shot. I do have to say that mine likes a clean barrel, after 3 shots I clean the barrel with cleaner and then dry patch. I shoot mainly 240 grain Hornady 44 cal XTP's with a T/C mag express sabot, Fed. 209 primer, and either 100 or 150 grains of Pyrodex pellets. I consisantly get clover leaf groups at 100 yards. When I shoot 3 pellets I also get approx. 1 1/2" groups at 200 yards. My rifle is completely stock except for a trigger job and a 3X9 Leupold mounted on it. I have also shot 300 grain XTP's with the same loads and accuracy was good also but the 240's have worked best for me and the recoil is not quite as bad. I hope that this helps you out in some way.

[ 01-31-2003, 00:26: Message edited by: Handloader ]

OldFart THANKS.DO you use .44cal or 45cal Barnes bullets and would it not be cheper to buy the bullets and sabots sepertly.Do you no what sabot that Barnes uses with there bullets when thay sell the combo pk.

SHORTMAG,
I tried buying the Bullets and sabots seperately, but still had problems with the sabots. I think I tried 3/4 or more of the sabots and combinations out there at that time. Once I found the Barnes, I haven't had a reason to experiment any further, and considering the fustrations they gave me, I haven't had any desire to switch.
That said, I have heard good reports on the MMP sabot. They tell me that the thinner sabots (larger Caliber bullet) work better, but I have not verified this.
I am interested if anyone else has found a good combination. My standards are 10 or more shots without cleaning the barrel, using 150 grain or equivelent of pyrodex, black powder or cleanshot, and still have a accurate gun (Not deformed sabot). I set these standards because I never know what might happen during the Muzzleloader hunt. The only sabot I found that can stand this brutal test is the Barnes. I have found that the others may go 3 to 5 shots before the sabots start having problems. Anything else out there?

OLDFART Thanks.I will take your advice and will try the Barens sabots.When a field I pack powder solvent with me and clean my gun when i'm able some times even after one shot some times five or more just when thangs are gone slow.Thanks for the advice and if any one has more advice fill free thanks.