I have seen it mentioned here, that some were getting good results (velocity and accuracey) with RL-25 and the 30/06 and 375H&H.

Does anyone have any reloading data for these two rounds?

Thanks

TX, you cannot get enough RL25 in an 06 case and get nowhere near decent velocities. Maybe you were thinking of RL22 perhaps?

quote:

Originally posted by grizz007:
TX, you cannot get enough RL25 in an 06 case and get nowhere near decent velocities. Maybe you were thinking of RL22 perhaps?

Yup....RL22 works well.....RL25 is a bit slow!

RL22 is too slow for the .375 H&H, good in a .30-06 with 180-220's. RL 25 is too slow for either cartridges.

I must disagree. With Re25 in a 30-06 AI (the AI version is a very mildly improved 30-06 by increasing powder capacity by ~3-4 grs), I'm getting up to 3100 fps with 180gr bullets and 26" barrel. GSSP, who also posts on this board, has duplicated these results. In fact, GSSP observed ejector marks at about 70 grs. of Re25. In the std '06 one should be able to tap/pack ~67grs of Re25 in a Lapua '06 case. I predict velocity should easily exceed 2900 fps. This will be a heavily compressed load, but I've noticed no ill effects. Try it!

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
I must disagree. With Re25 in a 30-06 AI (the AI version is a very mildly improved 30-06 by increasing powder capacity by ~3-4 grs), I'm getting up to 3100 fps with 180gr bullets and 26" barrel. GSSP, who also posts on this board, has duplicated these results. In fact, GSSP observed ejector marks at about 70 grs. of Re25. In the std '06 one should be able to tap/pack ~67grs of Re25 in a Lapua '06 case. I predict velocity should easily exceed 2900 fps. This will be a heavily compressed load, but I've noticed no ill effects. Try it!

I don't doubt the veracity of your report, however, one must question if RL 25 is subject to the same lot to lot variations as other powders in the RL series.
I have burned much H 4831 in the venerable -06, and IMHO it is a powder one cannot stuff enough into the case when using 180 grain bullets. A very heavily compressed load of 60+ grains nets approximately 2840 fps. Perhaps this is an experiment worth repeating with the modern short cut variety of 4831?

quote:

In the std '06 one should be able to tap/pack ~67grs of Re25 in a Lapua '06 case. I predict velocity should easily exceed 2900 fps. This will be a heavily compressed load, but I've noticed no ill effects. Try it!

I'm sure missing something here. I just pulled a new Lapua 06 case and filled it FULL and it would hold 64.1 grains. I then packed as much as I could using a dowel every 10 grains to pack it. I was able to get the capacity up to 65.9. This is a full case no room for a bullet. Even if I assume the AI gives me 4% capacity then I'm still at 68.54 and no room for a bullet.

How in the world can you get 70 grs in the case plus a bullet.

Below is GSSPs post from a different forum. I get very similar results and can tap/pack (using long drop tube as well) up to 71.5 grs. of Re25 into a Lapua '06 AI. A standard '06 Lapua case will take ~67 grs. or ~4.5 grs. less. Maybe GSSP and I are better at getting "more into less room." Regards, AIU

"Ok,

I was able to get out this morning with enough time to run one ladder before my wife said she needed me at home; 180 Nosler Ballistic Tip with Reloader 25.

Looked pretty good. Here are the stats.

Caliber 30-06 Ackley Improved
2nd Firing of brass
Seating info
OAL 3.393 base to tip = 3.760 w/ Stoney pt. 8-12 degrees F`, wind 0-1 mph from 10-11 o'clock
Shot 20070113, 0900-1100 hrs
Reloader 25
No sizing, so far. Will probably order a Redding Body die to keep shoulder in check.
Primers punched w/ Lyman Universal decapper then neck sized with Lee collet die; Used standard .3055" diameter decapping rod.
Brass info Brand Length fired/sized headspace
Winchester
Federal 210Match primers
Prep & notes Die used Seating die settings
Forster Ultra seater w/ custom 30-06 Ackley insert
Round # Powder Chg Wt Velocity Comments
1 66.8 2837 72% humidity win
2 67.1 2860
3 67.4 2878
4 67.7 2922
5 68 2890
6 68.3 2935
7 68.6 2953
8 68.9 2935
9 69.2 2977
10 69.5 2955
11 69.8 2955
12 70.1 3021
13 70.4 3035
14 70.7 3037 Ejector mark and hard bolt lift.
71 Did not shoot, 66% humidity

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/GSSP/180BTRel25Ladder20070113.jpg

I pulled the weather data from weather.com but read the wind and temp with my Anometer.

Numbers 13, 14 and 15 were looking pretty good until #15 showed an ejector mark and the bolt lift was hard; time to backoff. Plus, shooting this load at 8-12 degrees F would only tempt more pressure when shooting in warmer weather, IMHO.

Numbers 1 and 2 were from a cold (to say the least) clean barrel and are at the bottom left, possibly out of view of the cameras lens. Things got interesting with #3,4 and 5; want a little more velocity though. I like 9, 10 and 11. Some definate nodes.

Opinions?

Oh yeah, the aiming square was 1-3/4" inside. I was able to hold my cross hair at 14x.

Edited by GSSP (01/13/07 05:05 PM)"

The following is a set of reloading options and techniques which, take it or leave it, is outside the normal thinking when it comes to reloading. I was turned onto this idea by “Ackley Improved Userâ€. As first, like many, I was skeptical and unbelieving. With an open mind, questions to the right people, research and actual testing, it worked for me. Your mileage may vary. (YMMV)

After more than 30 years of shooting the 30-06 in 22†barrels, I wanted more velocity but without too much hassle or changing calibers. The 30-06 Ackley Improved seems the ticket….for me! Since I was going to start with a new barrel (my Rem 700’s was shot out) and it is impossible to add barrel length, I started with a 26†stainless steel barrel by Dan Lilja of Plains, MT. It has a 1:11 twist, which Dan assures me, will handle up to 200 grain bullets and has 3-grooves instead of the more traditional 5 or 6 grooves. I had Ian Jensen of American Fork, Utah, chamber, thread, crown and install my barrel into my 1982 Rem 700 long action, which had had a 22†30-06 Mag-na-ported barrel. By the way, Ian is the gunsmith for Barnes Bullets! With that old 22†barrel, the fastest 180 grain load I ever put together was 2750 fps. It had worked for years on numerous elk, deer and antelope, but I wanted MORE!

The concept is to use more powder in the case. Gee, what’s so new about that? But, there is a “’nuff room†issue; as in their isn’t enough of it. Well, the Ackley improvement adds a bit. My 30-06 Winchester cases add 4 grains of water after they had been fire formed to the Ackley. So, theirs a bit more powder! But then, many people have done the 30-06 Ackley improvement and not hit 3100 fps with 180 grain bullets in 26†barrels; have they?

The trick is slow powder, or should I say a powder which is slower than those traditionally used powders. Traditional powders like H414, W760 and WXR, the N*50/*60 series, the 4350’s, Reloader 19 and 22, Ramshot Hunter, AA 3100, Norma MRP and the 4831 series. Don’t get me wrong, some of these powders are very good. Nosler notes how in the standard 30-06, 61 grains of Reloader 22 pushes a 180 grain bullet to 2872 fps and 62 grains of Reloader 22 pushes the same 180 grain bullet to 2985 fps in the Ackley Improved version; both in a 24†Lilja barrel with 1:10 twist. Makes me wonder if Lilja barrels are fast.

The powders I’m talking about are Reloader 25, Magnum, IMR 7828/ssc, H1000, N165, N170. Tradionally, these are magnum powders. Hey, if we’re talking about pushing a 180 bullet at 3000-3100 fps, we are talking magnum territory; albeit, the lower end of magnum territory.

I’m going to talk about Reloader 25 as this is “the†powder for my ’06 Ackley. There is no loading data available for the 30-06 Ackley, at least none that I know of. AIU gave me a bunch of his data. I believe he derived it from Quick Load, and then tested it himself. From there, I tested some!

If you look in most reloading manuals, the traditionally slow powders are usually compressed loads. There are differing opinions on whether or not compression is good or bad. I’m not going into that here. The reloading manuals compress “a little†compared to what I’m going to talk about.

I’m talking about putting up to 70-71 grains of Reloader 25 into a 30-06 Ackley case; right up to the top of the neck. Again, I really balked at this in the beginning. I’d read an article by Rick Jamison in an early 2005 issue of Shooting Times. In it he brings to light the, then new, IMR 7828ssc. He says that if one wants to increase velocity, one needs to increase the powder charge weight. To do that the neat new thing about the super short cut version of IMR 7828 is that you get more into a case. He was able to get about 4 more grains of it into a 22-250 case. When used with heavy bullets the velocities can climb.
“Ok†thought I! More powder gets more speed but what about all that compression and will it hurt something?

I called Hodgdon and talked to a tech. Without mentioning any cartridge specifics I asked some questions. I did this because I didn’t want any standard answers coming my way without him actually thinking about the question. I asked about the best way to increase velocity. “Increase the powder charge†was his response. I asked if the new shorter cut propellants allowed this. “Yes†he said. I then went on to ask about compressing powders and any inherent problems associated with it. He said the only problems he could think of, besides the naturally increased pressure issue surrounding powders which are quicker burning combined with the inherent danger of putting to much quick burning powder into a case, was the damage induced to the powder grain due to drastic compression. I asked what he meant by drastic compression. He said that when a person takes something akin to a wooden dowel and begins to bang and crush the powder to get it to compress, they can damage some grains, which can subsequently change the burn dynamics and alter the interior ballistics. I gave an example where I would slowly fill a case ½ way up the neck or all the way to the top of the neck, via slowly trickling through a long drop tube and use “normal†bullet seating, would that “damage†the grain structure. He thought for a moment and said “no, it should be fineâ€.

The one problem I have encountered thus far while compressing the powder is accurate bullet seating to a specified OAL difficult. Added/decreased pressure from the seating stem/cup is needed and varies as powder increased/decreases.

I have run some 300 yd groups running in the 3â€-5†range. Heading out in the am, hopefully, to test some more Nosler 180 BT and Speer 180 Hot Core groups. I had to wait until I could buy some new bases/rings for my Nikon Buckmaster 4.5-14-40 w/ mildot and side focus. The old Conetrol rings and bases had the scope sitting 12-1/8†from the recoil pad and I was getting hit between the eyes. Great scope, just difficult to mount!

quote:

Ackley Improved User & GSSP

I stand corrected. Either I need new glasses or I can't read the scale. If I use Lapua brass and a 10" drop tube dropping it about as slow as I could I could get 67grs of RL25 in the case. While I didn't have any 180gr I could seat a 165bt.

I actually tried it with 70 in the factory case. The powder was still up in the tube by almost a .5". Seating the case agains my back vibrator for about 2 minutes allowed 70grs to fit. The 165 would still seat but I think it might have caused a touch of neck expansion because I could pull the bullet back out with my fingers.

Can you really get 67 grains in a 06 case?

From what I've seen, 67 grains of R25 will fit but only if it's been fireformed to the 30-06 chamber and you neck sized. Even then it will come quite a ways up the neck; as does 70 gr of R25 in the Ackley case. Redding suggests to not try this w/ their comp seater die; may hurt it.

Also, your seater cup needs to be very smooth, ie, 1500 grit wet sandpaper, so the cup doesn't grab the bullet and yank it right back out. You should see me trying to dump powder out of the case after I've pulled a bullet (intentionally); dig, dump, dig, dump, dig, dump!

quote:

Can you really get 67 grains in a 06 case?

Pegleg,

As you can see I was one to first doubt it. Matter of fact I thought I had run the test and it failed. I retried this morning and using a real slow drop and a 10" tube 67grs of rl25 filled an unfired Lapua case to the very top. I could then seat a 165BT in the case. Would it stay? I have no clue.

I went to the bench, and I just got 68 grs of Re25 in a new unfired Normal standard '06 case and 67.5 grs. in an unfired RWS standard '06 case!

Here's the technique. Start with a Sinclair long drop tube funnel and begin by slowly dropping powder incrementally into the case while tapping the case against the bench. Hold both the case neck and drop tube funnel with your fingers at the same time. Then after adding the 68 grs. of Re25, tap the case on the side gently with a metal spoon for another 15 seconds. The whole process takes a minute or two. Trust me, you will get ~67 grs. of Re25 into that unfired standard '06 case. It will be filled right to the top.

Now, that case will take a bullet and keep it seated without pushing back out, if you've fully sized the case in a full resizing die with the neck expander/primer decapping tool removed. In other words, by fully/maximally resizing that neck, you'll get maximum grabbing of the bullet.

Compressing the powder will cause no ill effects and doesn't break down the powder grains, except very minimally and insignificantly in my experience.

With a 24" barrel your 180 NBT will fly out at over 2900 fps (~2950 fps). And, you'll see minimal pressure signs.

You just converted your '06 into a bona fide 300 H&H Magnum.

Finally, GSSP, all that data I shared with you was REAL chronographed date - NOT QL estimates. Hmmmm..."your mileage may vary" (YMMV). I can think of only one place where that acronym might have come from. Do you like the pole dancers?

Happy reloading, AIU

Ackley Improved User,

What primer do you use?

What velocity can you get from a 22"bbl?


The reason for my orginal question is: I'm looking for a handload that will duplicate Federal's HE load w/ 180gr Nosler Partition's (this factory load chronographs @2860fps in my 22"bbl). I can't come close w/ RL-22.

I use CCI or Federal BR primers.

I don't use 22" barrels, but I bet you can duplicate the ~2860 fps with 66-67 grs. of Re25 with a 180 gr. NPT. I bet Federal's HE load is essentially what I advocate, but maybe with a different slow burning powder. I don't know what slow burner Federal uses.

You should be able to come close with Re22, WXR, or MRP (all are very close, made in Sweden, and probably even the same powder). I'm not sure why you not coming close. You should be able to easily go over 65,000 PSI (even pop a primer) and exceed that velocity with Re22 and 180 grain bullets. Describe for us what you've done with Re22.

Regards, AIU

In the process of going back out this morning to finalize some groups after shooting 300 yd ladders with the Nosler 180 BT and Speer 180 Hot Core on top of Rel 25, I wanted some fouling/sighter shots for each bullet. I need these since I have my new Ken Farrel alum 1-pc Picatinny base and TSP alum 1" med rings mounted.

Anyway, I took some 3rd shot 30-06 brass from my old barrel, and easily loaded 67.6 gr of Rel 25 via my 8" Forster funnel/drop tube. I simply leave the case in my loading block and dribble in the powder from the scale's pan, tappng in on the edge of the funnel as I go. This brass is NOT FL sized but only neck sized with a Lee Collet die, using the standard .0355" mandrel. No lube! It's not even to the top; dang near! After that bullet seating is simple via my Forster Ultra seater. I've yet to see any bullets backing out of the case. I check them just prior to shooting via the same Stoney pt OAL guage.

MHC_TX,

To answer your ?, I'm using the Fed 210M primer.

And Ackley Improved User. I knew that the loads you sent were actually shot over a chrony!

And one more thing, for all who are finding this topic of interest, my bullets are "into" the lands by .000" to .010". And still no pressure signs except that one 70.7 gr Rel 25 loaded so it was .000" against the lands.

In addition, if anyone is worried I started out too high, I actually started at 62.4 gr of Rel 25 which gave me 2359 fps; then worked my way up in .4 then .3 gr increments. I basically have a 8+ gr ladder.

Here is where I got with the 30/06 and RL-22

180gr Nosler Partition
61.0grs of RL-22 (that's all I could get in the case - I didn't compact it)
WW-cases
Fed#210 primer

Chronographed Velocity = 2695fps

Rifle: Winchester M-70 feather weight w/ 22"bbl (stainless)

quote:

Originally posted by MHC_TX:
Here is where I got with the 30/06 and RL-22

180gr Nosler Partition
61.0grs of RL-22 (that's all I could get in the case - I didn't compact it)
WW-cases
Fed#210 primer

Chronographed Velocity = 2695fps

Rifle: Winchester M-70 feather weight w/ 22"bbl (stainless)

This isn't bad at all but you should not be afraid of compacting the powder.

A wooden dowel works as does a brass rod.....you should hasve little trouble (working up as usual) to 63 grains and about 2800'/sec

Some folks have tested pressures of this load at the same as factory loaded 270 rounds!

Back from the range yesterday and I've probably settled on some loads for my '06 Ackley.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/GSSP/180BTRel2568.jpg

Any way, my post is not so much about that but that my I had put together some standard 30-06 casings to use for fouling and sighting-in. These consisted of the Nosler 180 BT on top of 67.6 gr of Rel 25 for a velocity of 2908 and 2972. Horrible extreme spread but these were very quickly dumped charges with no real effort to insure any accuracy other than that the brass was sorted out to ensure the neck thickness did not vary more than .001". I realize 2-shots does not make a group but when the all the other 9 groups were anywhere from .757 to 1.5", this seemed pretty exceptional.
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/GSSP/180BTRel2567.jpg

Al, a 0.84" 3-shot group (I assume 100 yds) with 3035 fps and 180 NBTs is GREAT performance from an '06 AI - VERY EFFICIENT!

Athough Accubonds may perform better, I've killed many bull elk with the 180 NBT - I've had super penetration and the elk drop dead in their tracks. NBTs are cheap and the most accurate hunting bullet in my experience.

Happy shooting and regards, AIU

AIU,

Something I forgot.

Speer 180 spitzer Hot Core, 69.2 gr Rel 25, 3045 fps average.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c129/GSSP/Speer180SptRel2569.jpg

1st, any more testing will be playing with seating depth to see if their is a "sweeter" spot.

2nd, I chose the Speer 180 Spt (hot core) because it's bc is very close to the Nosler Partition's. I will see if both the Nosler 180 AB and Partition will duplicate these two bullets I've tested.

3rd, THANKYOU for pointing me in the right direction and saving me a lot of time and money with trying different components.

4th, now it's time to really sight that badboy in and start charting long range drop tables.

Al, how many reloadings are you getting out of your cases? Accubond, NBT, NPT, Speer, Sierra, Hornady, and the like have all given me similar velocity pressure readings, although Nosler and Sierra have been the most accurate. TSX might be similar as well. Happy shooting, AIU

AIU,

So far, I'm on my 3rd firng of my 1st batch of 50 Winchester brass. Primer pockets are tight. I just finished prepping my 2nd batch of 50 and some of them were included in Saturday's shoot.

I'm currently working on setting a standard for neck thickness and wanted to pick your brain on this issue. I'm thinking of only using brass which has a neck thickness variance of .001" or less. Thats what got shot on Saturday. My first batch of 50 has 18 as such and my 2nd batch has 23. If I extended my standard to .002" or less than it runs 49 and 46 respectively. Obviously extending my standard would give me more shootable brass.

With the .001" brass I shot on Saturday, my bullet runout was anywhere from .0015" to .0095". To give a more clear picture, my worst two 3-shot groups, fired with 67.7 gr Rel 25 and the Nos BT bullet ran 2.96" and 3.58" at 100 yds; the TIR was .0095", .0085", .0015", .002", .0035" and .006". My best Nos BT groups with the 68.6 gr charge ran .002", .0055", .005", .0055" .002", and .0055" for 1.39" and .840" 3-shot groups.

With the 69.2 gr Speer bullet loads which ran 1.267" and .757" groups, the TIR ran .006", .004", .004", .006", .002" and .006".

What I hope to find out, is if I allow myself to use brass with up to a .002" neck thickness variation, will that edge up the TIR and subsequently the group size?

Remember this is a 7.25 lb "hunting" rilfe whose 26" muzzle mics .542". On the other hand, I want to be able to shoot MOA out to 600 or more yds if I feel the need. I don't feel either the Nosler BT or Speer Spt loads are MOA yet; more like 1.5 MOA. Only time will tell if I'm asking too much of this lightweight.

Oh yeah, I had another batch of two 3-shot Nosler BT loads to shoot for group but never did finish as the 69.5 gr charge, on the first 2 shots, had a hard bolt lift; 3094 fps though.

Al, when it comes to hunting rifles with standard chamber neck diameters, the effects of neck thickness and turning are negligible. I shoot bench rest with tight-neck chambers, wherein neck trimming is absolutely necessary. I've turned my necks in my hunting rifles, but I find no effect on accuracy.

To maximize your accuracy with a hunting gun the important parameters are:

1. Barrel quality (free floated + glass bedded)
2. Barrel stiffness (the heavier the better - 0.75" minimum at muzzle)
3. Bullet quality (NBT or Sierra GK; maybe Accubond)
4. Neck size only with competition die (Redding)
5. Avoid using the neck expander - makes the case crooked.
6. Use competition seater (Redding)
7. Seat bullet on or just off the lands (0.01")
8. Shoot off solid bench
9. Use first-rate Sinclair Bench products and rests.
10. Hold gun exactly the same with every shot. Don't squeeze the gun - light pressure only.
11. Avoid kick by letting butt kick into lead shot filled leather bag - eliminates flinch.
12. Shoot under good conditions (early morning or late evening without wind or mirage)
13. Last but not least, get a good trigger (Jewel works for me).
14. Set trigger at 2 pounds.

PS. The problem with neck sizing only is that after several loadings the case becomes expanded and can cause stiff bolt lift in its own right. I full size, because that's what I'm going to be hunting with.

All my hunting guns are as above, and they all shoot 0.5 to 1.0 MOA with full-power loads.

Regards, AIU

quote:

Originally posted by MHC_TX:
I have seen it mentioned here, that some were getting good results (velocity and accuracey) with RL-25 and the 30/06 and 375H&H.

Does anyone have any reloading data for these two rounds?

Thanks

IMO, RE25 is a little too slow for the .375 H&H. I have used IMR 4350 and WW 760 in the .375, and those are about the slowest you can use and still get enough of into the old H&H case to give reasonable velocities.

I have not tried this stuff in the old '06, but it seems obvious that some "heroic" efforts are needed to get enough of it into the case to give the performance level desired....