First : Credit where credit is due. I stole this idea from seafire/B17G . I probably never would have proceeded with doing this without reading his posts.
Seafire, YOU DA MAN !

All loads used the following:
155 gr. Nosler custom competition bullet
Winchester large rifle ( standard ) primer
Winchester brass
And of course Blue dot powder
All bullets were seated .005 into the rifling with light neck tension.

After expending all my cipherin abilities I started here :
All fired with the same case until I state otherwise.
25.2 gr. gave 1733
26.0 gr. gave 1884
27.0 gr. gave 2287
28.0 gr. gave 2322 ( shoulder was at +.0045 bolt closed hard )
Bumped shoulder back to +.004 ( this is max for easy bolt closing , obviously this is for MY gun only )
29.0 gr. gave 2373 ( returned shoulder to +.0045 )
30.0 gr. gave 2452 ( bolt opened slightly hard, shoulder at +.005 )
Primer slightly cratered ( mild ) primer pocket slightly looser than normal.
Bumped shoulder back again.
31.0 gr. gave 2503 ( shoulder blown back out to +.0045 primer pocket same as last shot, no further expansion)
32.0 gr. gave 2533 ( sticky extraction, shoulder at +.0055 )
New brass...
32.0 gr. gave 2547 ( sticky extraction, shoulder at +.006 )Yikes !
Stopped here cuz it seemed like the place to stop.
Primers never lost round corner radius.
Body sizer contact area never moved closer to the case head than with standard loads ( I infer from this that the case head did not show any greater expansion than normal )
Shoulder movement in itself indicates ( to ME ) that pressures are plenty high at 32.0, enough that I would not reccommend it.
29.0 is max for me, and closely mirrors seafires comments about 2400 fps. as the top end.

But how does it shoot ?
Everybody knows that you NEED a case thats at least 85% full or accuracy suffers...

If you believe that, then you won't believe this.
Firing all the preceeding shots on the same target showed me that 25.2 through 29.0 gave an elevation spread of appx. .500 inch, with higher charges moving higher. (This was appx. 6 inches lower than my standard 200 yd. zero )
Can you say monster sweet spot ?

But how does it shoot ?
5 rounds 27.0 gr. ( middle of the sweet spot )
Group at .470 X .110 ( center to center )
Holy crap ! that must be a fluke !
5 more at 27.0 gr.
Group at .550 X .280 ( center to center )
Extreme spread for these 10 shots was 36.07 fps.
SD was 10.86

What about powder position and temperature, that has to be all screwed up in a load like this, fast powder rattling around in a case this size. C'mon man it gonna be stable...

So I threw some rounds in the cooler while I ate, in contact with the ice packs.
27.0 gr.
2226
2243
2247
2255
2261

Then I tipped the gun up before each shot.
27.0 gr.
2312
2331
2323
2320
2316

Then I tipped it down.
27.0 gr.
2364
2279
2264
2279
2278

Total spread for all 20 preceeding shots was less than an inch, and I fired the cold ones fast to avoid letting them warm up.

Then I went home cuz it looked like rain.

Seafire, YOU DA MAN !
I can shoot a load like this all freakin day without a twitch ! ( call me a wuss, but after 30 os so full power loads free recoil style, I get a little twitchy )

Sorry if I talk too much...

Travis F.

Trav:

HOW could someone ask for a better range report?

I just need to start sub contracting out to you for all that field work. Thanks for posting those.

Appreciate the nice kudos, but you deserve the credit for the work and a great report. Sharing ideas is what the forum should be about.

Fantastic job, and Glad to see that the application holds true in the short mags. I don't own any, so I could not test it.

Thanks again for testing it and posting such a fantastic report.
I am envious.

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

I'm kinda curious since I'm doing a little load development on a 300 WSM myself.

I'm getting the sweet spot with the 2 powders and 3 primers I'm useing at 62 gr. to 64 gr.

With the 200 gr. bullet I'm useing I start compressing at 64.5.

So you are useing a powder that uses less than 1/2 of case capacity?

First : All groups were at 100 yards.

Swamp fox,
Yes, and according to much of what Iv'e read, this should result in poor accuracy. Much has been written about the neccessity of minimum air space in the case and load density. At least in this case it does not seem to affect anything too much," standard " loads have shown .200 on a good day ( 5 shots at 100 yds. ), and the Blue dot loads have not been tried at a different seating depth yet. They may even get smaller with a little tweaking.
It hurts a little to have a longstanding belief shattered, but , no pain , no gain.

Thanks again seafire !

Travis F.

TBF
I have been loading 59gr of RL 15 behind a Barnes 168gr xlc with good results, sub moa. This load does not come close to filling up th case either, it is closer to 85% than your bluedot. Like you I was wondering what it might do in colder temps, but people that I have taalked to locally have said it would not be a problem

Your experiment was handled with a great deal of professionalism and your report and the style it was given were just super.Thank you TBF.We now have 2 Blue Dot prop Jobs. roger

TBF, I too thank you for the great Blue Dot report. Very useful stuff, and very well thought out and reported.



About the reports of inaccuracy from small powder loads in large cases.... That's one of the problems with anecdotal reports from situations where the variables aren't fully under control. They really don't necessarily merit general application. It is just as possible some variables other than powder bulk were at play which caused the inaccuracy in those instances.



Think .38 Special. For many years it was one of the premier pistol accuracy rounds. Think 2.7 to 3.1 grains of Bullseye. For many years that charge was one of the premier accuracy loads. You could easily triple charge the case with three full Bullseye loads. It never seemed to hurt the accuracy to shoot 1/3 of a caseful or less.



One of the seldom mentioned benefits of using faster burning, dense, powders is the reduced recoil. Adding 20 grains of powder for about the same velocity has an effect somewhat similar to adding 15-20 grains of bullet weight when it comes to recoil.



Less volume of faster powders also sometimes improves accuracy because the burn MAY be more consistent. Different powders have different pressure ranges they are designed to burn within. Sometimes by switching to a lighter load of a faster powder, it is possible to more consistently get pressures up to where the powder is designed to burn, thus completely burning all of it each shot. That will likely produce at least as good accuracy as shooting a powder which is marginally too slow, builds pressure more slowly, and may or may not burn all the powder each shot.



You and Seafire are doing us all a real service by reminding of of the usefullness of fast powders in large cases. if nothing else, they work fine and are LESS EXPENSIVE to shoot. Less cost = more potential shots = more competent marksmen.



AC

TBF,
Or any one else, I ws showing this data to my brother and he brought up the notion of overburn of the powder upon ignition. By this he mens that the ignition jumps to the front of the powder and burns backwards.

1. Is this a problem in cases that are under filled?
2. Is it dangerous?
3 If so how empty does the case have to be?

Simdow

"1. Is this a problem in cases that are under filled?
2. Is it dangerous?
3 If so how empty does the case have to be?"

1.There seems to be an existing problem but not "evidenced" in faster burning powders.

2.Apparently rifles have been damaged and people injured but agaain only with slower burning powders. I am not speaking here of over loads.

3. "If" the reduced load blow up scenario with faster powdes doesn't exist?

The condition you present exists all the time in hand guns and I can't say I've ever heard the type igniton you bring up ever created a problem.I've followed this Blue Dot Series since Seafire started it.At first there was a little apprehension created by all of the attention given reduced load phenmina, pontificating naye sayers and the chance of double loading.Based on some fine experimentation by seafir/B17G and others, and helpful, factual reporting all the smoke and mirrors that were giving me a problem have vanished.The rules for reloading remain the same.Establish good habits, act with care based on knowledge, and search for information before jumping off into an area you are unsure of or you know little or nothing about. roger

To adress the question of light charges causing detonation.

This is something that trained lab staff equipped with high dollar equipment investigated , and could not verify or duplicate under their conditions.
Specifically Hodgdon with H110, and Winchester with W296.

Does it happen under conditions that occur outside the lab ?
I dunno, and do not reccommend finding out the hard way.
I would not reduce charges of these powders below the pressure they are designed to work within.

This is the problem as I understand it ( I could be off base with this one ) , If the powder is below it's operating pressure, it may not burn correctly. This may result in a bullet stuck in the bore. the next shot will most definately reach adequate pressure as it is pushing two bullets, one of which is stuck. This is bad.

Blue dot, in a load like this is most definately not towards the pressure at which it refuses to burn correctly, actually I was expecting it to cause spikes from being above it's design pressure. The chrono should have shown this as velocity.

I did not set out to prove/disprove anything, just to see what happened when Blue dot was loaded in a WSM at rifle pressures. As you know from the above, I was impressed with the results.

For those who are nervous about a double charge.
Yes, it will fit.
Do NOT let this happen, it will be ungood.

If your only insurance against a double charge is overflowing powder and the bullet being difficult to seat, you are not ready to experiment with this.

Travis F.

"

Quote:

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To adress the question of light charges causing detonation."

"Specifically Hodgdon with H110,"

Prop Job#2
Many moons ago I had a bunch of 38 special ammo loaded up with 1/2 charges of .357 magnums . The first shot did not hit the target nor did the second. There wasn't much recoil either.There also were two 38 cal. lead bullets lodged in my barrel.The needed combustion temperature and pressure were not reached and the partially burned powder was blown out between the cylinder and the barrel as the pressure went to 14.7 psi.. a lot of flash bang but that was about it. A 5/16 dowl rod and a hammer dislodged the bullets. Since there was no high pressure the S&W continues to shoot today. I used up all the ammo in my Ruger #3 38 special rifle with no problem at all. roger