I am using a comparator to measure my .270Win cases before sizing fired cases. The “value” up to the shoulder of the case measures 2.0275” after firing. When inserted in the chamber the bolt closes it bit stiff. I setup the Redding Full Length Size Die to make contract with the shell holder and then I turn it a ¼ turn out as to prevent it from bumping the shoulders back too much. BUT after sizing it the case now grows to 2.0310” when measured up to the shoulder. When chambering the case in the rifle, the bolt closes still as stiff as before. When I turn the Die in to contract the shell holder as per the instruction of the Die Set, it had caused dents on the shoulders of the cases (along with too much lube). I had now solved this by applying Imperial Wax only to the tip of the case neck and to the body. No more dents. When measuring the case now with the comparator, it measures 2.0280” up to the shoulder and the bolt of my rifle closes easily when chambering the case. Your opinion is highly appreciated.

When the sizing button is pulled back out of the case after sizing it is pulling the shoulder forward. Try lubing the inside of the neck.

When fired a case inflates like a balloon until it contacts the chamber. This stretches the brass both diametrally and to the shoulder,but the length of the case gets shorter to the mouth.

When resized the stretched brass will not compress back to the same thickness so the extra material is squeezed back into extra length in the neck.

As you begin sizing the brass the previously inflated case is squeezed on the sides before contacting the shoulder. When squeezed on the case body the shoulder is pushed forward.

If you set the die away from the shell holder the shoulder is pushed forward and stays there making it hard to close the bolt.

When you turn the die in you can actually set the case to be exactly the lenght of the chamber to the shoulder. This will allow the bolt to close easily and the brass will last many reloads if not over loaded.

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When you turn the die in you can actually set the case to be exactly the lenght of the chamber to the shoulder. This will allow the bolt to close easily and the brass will last many reloads if not over loaded.

I agree. I don't think you are contacting the shoulder with the die. Just because the instructions say 1/4 turn that doesn't mean your case, chamber, die make correct contact. Adjsut the die to bump your shoulder back. I would use a little lube in the neck as well.

Many thanks for your advise! I am using a carbite neck expander and push the neck of every 3rd case in the Imperial Die Wax. It pulls through very easily.

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Originally posted by Fjold:
When the sizing button is pulled back out of the case after sizing it is pulling the shoulder forward. Try lubing the inside of the neck.

I don't believe the expander is pulling the shoulder forward as you would think. I have found that the cases will grow just as much when I tried resizing with expander removed.

I believe the brass is extruded(?) as the die reduces the diameter of the case.(that sentence needs some work)

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Originally posted by JBrown:

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Originally posted by Fjold:
When the sizing button is pulled back out of the case after sizing it is pulling the shoulder forward. Try lubing the inside of the neck.

I don't believe the expander is pulling the shoulder forward as you would think. I have found that the cases will grow just as much when I tried resizing with expander removed.

I believe the brass is extruded(?) as the die reduces the diameter of the case.(that sentence needs some work)

The OP's cases are growing from the case head to the shoulder measurement. If the dies are adjusted correctly there should be no room for the case to grow along that measurement.

Yes, cases "grow" when FL sized after having expanded to fit the chamber. Just like squeezing a cylinder of play-do makes it longer, when the die walls squeeze the case body, it gets longer.

It behooves reloaders to learn to adjust a bottle neck FL die correctly so the shoulder gets pushed back to, or very only slightly under, the fired location. Setting a shoulder back at all will then move shoulder metal into the neck, making it longer so eventually it will need trimming.

Moving the shoulder back too little makes the sized case hard to chamber, not moving it enough will accellerate case stretching and opens the possibility of a head seperation. Learn to adjust all dies by what they're doing, not by an instruction sheet's formula.

I can't say expander drag can't/won't stretch a neck/shoulder but in nearly 50 years of reloading it's never happened to my reloads weither the expander ball has been lubed or not.

Many thanks for your help and advise! I use a carbide expander ball and therefore there is minimal resistance when pulling the case out of the die. I think as explained above it is part of the way brass flows in the resizing process.

Does a case grown when sized? Measure before and again after.

There is a belief that the neck of the case gets thinner and or thicker when necking up and or necking down, if either thicker and or thinner was true the case length would not change, not a problem, but the neck does not get thinner and or thicker as much as it gets longer and or shorter. It is possible to distinguish fact from fiction and truth from nonsense, problem the inquiring mind would be required to follow steps as in ‘step sequence’.

Then there is that part about different types of sizing, I form 35 Whelen from 30/06, the neck of the 30/06 is necked up from .308 ID to 35 ID, when the neck is necked up the case shortens .035”, I form 30 Gibbs from 30/06, first I neck the case up to .338’ to form a shoulder, then size the neck back to .308 when forming the shoulder, the case shortens .030”, when fired ‘to form’ the case shortens again, after firing the case shortens a total of .040” to .045”. I compensate for the disappearing length with longer cases like the 280 Remington, again, I want all of the chamber to be covered with the case.

Then there are body sizing dies, that are not body sizing dies, if the die sized the body the die would not need a shoulder, instead the body has a shoulder that does not fit the case at the shoulder/neck juncture, my opinion the body die is a donut making machine. I refuse to start over, I have (almost) all the dies I will ever need. Body dies? I have body dies, for the 270 Winchester there is the 30/06 full length sizer die, for the 30/06 there is the 8mm/06 full length sizer die, for the 7mm08 there is the 308 Winchester full length sizer die. POINT!? If I wanted to know if sizing a case resulted in the case getting shorter I would use MY body dies, the amount of donut indicates the amount of increase in case length simply because MY body dies do not size all of the shoulder, then there is neck sizing, neck sizers are designed to be held off the shoulder to prevent the die from contacting the neck shoulder juncture.

There is nothing like measuring before and again after starting with measuring the case, new out of the box, for minimum length/full length size, it has always been a good ideal to save a new unfired round for reference, meaning? In the beginning new ammo out of the box chambered and fired, all the problems with failing to chamber starts with sizing.

F. Guffey

This discussion illustrates the point that you should adjust your sizing die to fit your rifle chamber, not just how the die instructions say. As Capt Barbossa said in Pirates of the Caribbean, "They be more like guidelines anyway".
You should always have the rifle you are loading for handy when setting up your sizing die. Adjust the die down until the bolt JUST closes on a resized case. This setting may not be what the instructions say but it is what works for your rifle. Also check how much tension you are getting on your bullets and adjust the size of your expander button so that you are not overworking the necks.

If necks do not get thicker or thinner as you increase or decrease their diameter, why when I resize .308 brass for my custom chambered 7-08, I have to neck turn for them to fit in the chamber; but when I resize .243 brass for the same rifle, I do not need to neck turn for them to chamber?
Simply stated, the brass has to go somewhere and getting longer or shorter isn't the answer.

Wasbeeman,
The answers above are correct for the question asked. For yours; I can answer that one. The 308 neck contains enough brass to provide consistent thickness all the way around the .308 bullet. The .243 brass does the same for around a .243 bullet. The 308 brass thus contains more brass than the 243 brass in the neck. When sizing down to .264 which I do, the 308 will create thicker necks and the 243 will create thinner. I hope that makes simple sense.
Best regards,

Fury, it was a retorical question. I was actually saying what you said.

I will assume there is a question in there somewhere. You have a custom rifle? In what way is the custom chamber different from a a standard chamber? Some custom chambers have custom necks, some custom chambers require neck turning, I am the fan of reaming, I have a reamer die for the 243 W, I am the fan of case forming, I have forming dies for the 308 W, 7mm08 and the 243 W. I am a case former, I form first then fire, everyone else fires to form.

Necking up and or down as in from 308 W to 243 is not sizing. Again, it is possible for a reloader to measure before and again after, back to forming dies, the length of the forming die + the .125” deck height of the shell holder is the equal to the length of the case, that makes the forming die a trim die. Meaning? It is not necessary for me to measure the case length to determine if it got longer, if the case protrudes above the forming die it got longer.

Conditioning? Most reloaders are conditioned to trim to length, I determine the length of the chamber first, both lengths, the one from the throat back to the bolt face and from the shoulder of the chamber back to the bolt face.

Again, I have one chamber with .016+ added to the length of the chamber from the datum back to the bolt face, I add .014” to the length of the case between the shoulder/datum to the case head, that leaves .002” for case travel, I am the fan of cutting down on case travel. When adding to the length of the case from the shoulder/datum to the head of the case I add .014” to the length of the case from the mouth of the case to the head of the case. Again, I want the case to cover all of the chamber.

F. Guffey

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Originally posted by Fury01:
Wasbeeman,
The answers above are correct for the question asked. For yours; I can answer that one. The 308 neck contains enough brass to provide consistent thickness all the way around the .308 bullet. The .243 brass does the same for around a .243 bullet. The 308 brass thus contains more brass than the 243 brass in the neck. When sizing down to .264 which I do, the 308 will create thicker necks and the 243 will create thinner. I hope that makes simple sense.
Best regards,

That is not always necessarily so. Yes, the 308 contains more brass in the neck for the simple fact that it's a larger diameter. I've been through all this. I have a 7.62 NATO chamber that has a fat neck section. In some instances I've found expaned up necks from 243 cases to actually have thicker necks then 308 cases. I've also sized down both commercial and military 30-06 cases to 308 and didn't really get thicker necks when some of the shoulder in transformed into the 308 neck. No doubt one has to go further down then that on a case before the brass actually gets thicker. A friend and I discovered that 270 brass, when sized to either 30-06 or 308 cases gave thicker necks. You just never know for sure what will come about.

Okay, some genius is gonna have to tell me where the extra metal comes from that makes a .243 get thicker when it's opened up to a .308.
And Guffy, if you change ANY diminsion on a case, you are sizing it. That may not fit your particular definition but it's true. Live with it. As far as my rifle, it was when a 7-08 was still a wildcat. Have fun playing with your thingies.

wasbeeman
one of us, Thank you, I do and I will, have fun, aggravating you is unintended, I have full length sizer dies, I have forming dies, I have neck dies, I have acquired dies for the sole purpose of necking up, long before I had a 35 Whelen rifle, I had a 35 Whelen full length sizer die for the sole purpose of necking 30/06 cases for wildcats and forming shoulders on cases that required fire forming because I did not have dies for sizing cases for long chambers.

I form first then fire, others choose to fire to form, both of us are formers, I form first, others fire to form, when I eject a fired case I call the ejected case a once fired case if it was new before I fired it, back to others, when they fire a new case they become case formers by firing the case. I use the fired cases to learn everything I can about the chamber. I want to know everything I can learn about the chamber and it’s effect the chamber had on the case when fired.

Back to “I form first”, I have presses, my presses have threads, threads make my presses adjustable because my dies have threads. There is nothing about adjusting the die in the press to the shell holder or off the shell holder that locks me up or drives me to the curb. I measure before and again after.

Then there are footnotes, 10 of them, 1, 3 and 4 instruct case formers a forming die is not required, the information that is omitted is the part about using new cases, when most choose to form they choose cases that have been fired and work hardened.

Again, Thank you,

F. Guffey

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wasbeemanone of us

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Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Okay, some genius is gonna have to tell me where the extra metal comes from that makes a .243 get thicker when it's opened up to a .308.
And Guffy, if you change ANY diminsion on a case, you are sizing it. That may not fit your particular definition but it's true. Live with it. As far as my rifle, it was when a 7-08 was still a wildcat. Have fun playing with your thingies.

That's not what I said. I said that some 243 cases I have, have thicker necks them most my 308 cases and when I size them up to 308 they still have thicker necks then the 308's.