I believe most of the bad raps for Lyman's scale/dispenser combo came from its first iteration, the DPS 1200. Lyman made some changes, and so the DPS 1200 II was born. Now, years later, they offer the DPS 1200 3. They should have all the bugs worked out by now, so if you're relying on Midway's reviews, the more recent ones would be the most meaningful.

BTW, shouldn't any brand of scale/dispenser combo rightly be called a 'thingy?'

I may get flamed or laughed out of here, but I haven't actually "weighed" a charge in a couple of years. My electronic scale quit, and I didn't replace it until about a month ago.

I use Lee Dippers, and I load regularly for 223, 308, 270, and 9.3x62. I use the chart provided to select the right dipper.

I consistently shoot MOA or better with my reloads in all calibers.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Sullivan:
I may get flamed or laughed out of here,

I use Lee Dippers,

Until they came up with the highly portable electronic scales, all of the Bench shooters used dippers of some sort or dropped their charges straight from the hopper.

Vapo, in reloading, everything beyond a rock and a rusty nail is a thingie. Too bad cyberspace wasn't around when folks started using those fancy-smancy presses instead of relying on Lee Loaders.

quote:

BTW, shouldn't any brand of scale/dispenser combo rightly be called a 'thingy?'

Don't know about your neck of the woods, but around here a "thingy" is something we use to produce more thingy's and even some with out thingy's.

I find it interesting how some people can dismiss the value of the one piece of reloading equipment that can keep them safe, scales. Treating smokeless powder particularly extruded powders like black powder (volume from a chart instead of its actual weight) is not the best practice IMO.

Electric scales are a temporary luxury, they well stop working after a while. A good balance beam is an “almost forever” piece of equipment, if taken care of.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
I find it interesting how some people can dismiss the value of the one piece of reloading equipment that can keep them safe, scales.

All due respect, I don't think any one here has dismissed the value, importance or safety benefits of any scale. Just a discussion/debate on it's use.

quote:

Originally posted by WhatThe:
...Now if your using this load to hunt and you have a margin of error, well O.K. However, if you are shooting BR and even tactical, wondering off your proven parameters can and will cost you at the range. ...

I believe the exact opposite of these statements. I want my Hunting Loads as accurate and precise as possible. If a person takes longer shots at Game, the Game deserves the most precise placement and cleanest Kills a person can make. Occasionally a bad shot is made, and I never forget them. Puts the pressure on to eliminate them entirely.

As for the Bench Rest, I no longer shoot for Trophys, but I do shoot against my buddies. Bench Rest doesn't mean spit compared to Killing Game. If my buddies happen to win and I occasionally have to buy them the BBQ - "well O.K.".

quote:

Originally posted by WhatThe:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
I find it interesting how some people can dismiss the value of the one piece of reloading equipment that can keep them safe, scales.

All due respect, I don't think any one here has dismissed the value, importance or safety benefits of any scale. Just a discussion/debate on it's use.

"I haven't actually "weighed" a charge in a couple of years. My electronic scale quit".

I don’t know about you but that quoted statement from Jeff is a little dismissive to me.

quote:

"I haven't actually "weighed" a charge in a couple of years. My electronic scale quit".

I don’t know about you but that quoted statement from Jeff is a little dismissive to me.

Only problem is, you missed something!

"I use Lee Dippers, and I load regularly for 223, 308, 270, and 9.3x62. I use the chart provided to select the right dipper."

Although these dippers are not ideal, he is using them along with a chart. They are well within safe parameters and lots of people use them.

[/QUOTE]I believe the exact opposite of these statements. I want my Hunting Loads as accurate and precise as possible. If a person takes longer shots at Game, the Game deserves the most precise placement and cleanest Kills a person can make. Occasionally a bad shot is made, and I never forget them. Puts the pressure on to eliminate them entirely.[/QUOTE]

I agree but some may not and that's their biz. Everyone marches to a different drummer. I know of people that are safe but don't concern themselves to specifics. If that's the way they want it and accept the results, who am
I to say otherwise. Everyone is different and seek results that make them happy, not me or anyone else. I believe these folks are being safe and if they are happy with their results, so am I!

gundog64, once again, thanks for sending me your old setup. when it gets here i'll play around with it a little. I haven't been able to get more powder since i ran out a few days ago. so i'll have to do that soon.
thanks
matt

quote:

Originally posted by WhatThe:

quote:

"I haven't actually "weighed" a charge in a couple of years. My electronic scale quit".

I don’t know about you but that quoted statement from Jeff is a little dismissive to me.

Only problem is, you missed something!

"I use Lee Dippers, and I load regularly for 223, 308, 270, and 9.3x62. I use the chart provided to select the right dipper."

Although these dippers are not ideal, he is using them along with a chart. They are well within safe parameters and lots of people use them.

I’m sorry but I didn’t miss anything. He is working with a volume measure day in and day out without a scale. How does he know his loads are consistent from day to day, month to month, year to year, lot to lot, without a scale to prove that?

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by WhatThe:

quote:

"I haven't actually "weighed" a charge in a couple of years. My electronic scale quit".

I don’t know about you but that quoted statement from Jeff is a little dismissive to me.

Only problem is, you missed something!

"I use Lee Dippers, and I load regularly for 223, 308, 270, and 9.3x62. I use the chart provided to select the right dipper."

Although these dippers are not ideal, he is using them along with a chart. They are well within safe parameters and lots of people use them.

I’m sorry but I didn’t miss anything. He is working with a volume measure day in and day out without a scale. How does he know his loads are consistent from day to day, month to month, year to year, lot to lot, without a scale to prove that?

I stay well under max, and I shoot nearly every day.

I am willing to meet anyone at the range to prove the consistency of my loads/accuracy.

Ron Williams and JMSSI are both members on here that have shot with me that will back up my claims. They have even shot my ammo for that matter.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Sullivan:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by WhatThe:

quote:

"I haven't actually "weighed" a charge in a couple of years. My electronic scale quit".

I don’t know about you but that quoted statement from Jeff is a little dismissive to me.

Only problem is, you missed something!

"I use Lee Dippers, and I load regularly for 223, 308, 270, and 9.3x62. I use the chart provided to select the right dipper."

Although these dippers are not ideal, he is using them along with a chart. They are well within safe parameters and lots of people use them.

I’m sorry but I didn’t miss anything. He is working with a volume measure day in and day out without a scale. How does he know his loads are consistent from day to day, month to month, year to year, lot to lot, without a scale to prove that?

I stay well under max, and I shoot nearly every day.

I am willing to meet anyone at the range to prove the consistency of my loads/accuracy.

Ron Williams and JMSSI are both members on here that have shot with me that will back up my claims. They have even shot my ammo for that matter.

Jeff, why would I want to shoot against you after you confessed that you’re a questionable reloader? It may blow up and I would be standing next to you!

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by WhatThe:

quote:

"I haven't actually "weighed" a charge in a couple of years. My electronic scale quit".

I don’t know about you but that quoted statement from Jeff is a little dismissive to me.

Only problem is, you missed something!

"I use Lee Dippers, and I load regularly for 223, 308, 270, and 9.3x62. I use the chart provided to select the right dipper."

Although these dippers are not ideal, he is using them along with a chart. They are well within safe parameters and lots of people use them.

I’m sorry but I didn’t miss anything. He is working with a volume measure day in and day out without a scale. How does he know his loads are consistent from day to day, month to month, year to year, lot to lot, without a scale to prove that?

A volume measure is a scale! If he is using the charts as he has stated, he is well within safety guidelines. In addition he has not promoted nor has he recommended his methods. He is obviously happy with his process, so what else is there to say?

quote:

Originally posted by WhatThe:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Originally posted by WhatThe:

quote:

"I haven't actually "weighed" a charge in a couple of years. My electronic scale quit".

I don’t know about you but that quoted statement from Jeff is a little dismissive to me.

Only problem is, you missed something!

"I use Lee Dippers, and I load regularly for 223, 308, 270, and 9.3x62. I use the chart provided to select the right dipper."

Although these dippers are not ideal, he is using them along with a chart. They are well within safe parameters and lots of people use them.

I’m sorry but I didn’t miss anything. He is working with a volume measure day in and day out without a scale. How does he know his loads are consistent from day to day, month to month, year to year, lot to lot, without a scale to prove that?

A volume measure is a scale! If he is using the charts as he has stated, he is well within safety guidelines. In addition he has not promoted nor has he recommended his methods. He is obviously happy with his process, so what else is there to say?

It’s not a scale, it’s a chart that was setup by someone. If you put total faith in those values then so be it.

Flame if you want to, but when I still had a scale, I weighed a few charges that I had "dipped". The chart proved to be accurate for the powders that I use which is mostly Varget.

I knew when I posted that there would be "someone" who would seriously overreact to my methods, but hey, there is more than one way to skin a cat. What I do works for me.

I did buy a scale about a month ago, and I did weigh a couple of charges after I got it. Nothing has changed charge-wise from a couple of years ago when my old scale crapped out.

Like I said, I have guys that can back me up, and I will put my accuracy and load consistency up against anyone at anytime.

Jeff, I don’t care about the accuracy of your loads and that the Lee dippers came through for you. It’s the lack of respect of what you’re doing and the example you set for new reloaders.

Wow!

I think suggesting to the newbie that you don't have to have a room full of (high dollar) thingies in order to load good, accurate, SAFE ammo is a plus. Those dippers you demeaned so have been in use for a whole lot of years.

When someone comes in and ask about starting out to reload, I suggest they go to the store and look at a Lee Loader. Spread the modest collection of tools on the counter and KNOW that is all you need to reload. Anything beyond that is "nice to have". Because I know they are about to get a laundry list of "stuff" that you could build a space shuttle with.

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
Jeff, I don’t care about the accuracy of your loads and that the Lee dippers came through for you. It’s the lack of respect of what you’re doing and the example you set for new reloaders.

Wow, pretty harsh! I'm getting out of this one but before I do; In Jeff's defense he never promoted his method nor recommend it. Second time I've said that. And again, the method he uses has been proven safe! Although it may be off a bit (in general) the vol. has been set to account for this. Therefore leaving a margin of safety. There's no poor example to anyone with his post and I think anyone new to reloading would question beyond 1 example.

wasbeeman,

Did all the benchrest shooter that use dippers at the bench develop their dipping loads from the Lee chart or did they use scales?

quote:

Wow, pretty harsh! I'm getting out of this one but before I do; In Jeff's defense he never promoted his method nor recommend it.

Yes he did! The mere fact that he mentioned that he went without a scale for 2 years is contemptible of normal reloading practice. If you find that defensible,,, I wonder?

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
Jeff, I don’t care about the accuracy of your loads and that the Lee dippers came through for you. It’s the lack of respect of what you’re doing and the example you set for new reloaders.

This is getting hilarious. You make it sound like I have a death wish or something.

I actually started out using an old Lee Loader in 270 Win which used a dipper, and the ammo that I loaded with it worked so well I just continued but with "real" dies.

As far as being disrespectful, you will surely win that prize.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Sullivan:

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:
Jeff, I don’t care about the accuracy of your loads and that the Lee dippers came through for you. It’s the lack of respect of what you’re doing and the example you set for new reloaders.

This is getting hilarious. You make it sound like I have a death wish or something.

I actually started out using an old Lee Loader in 270 Win which used a dipper, and the ammo that I loaded with it worked so well I just continued but with "real" dies.

As far as being disrespectful, you will surely win that prize.

Jeff, I don’t think you’re a bad guy but I don’t like what you promoted, welling or inadvertently. We can agree to disagree but I think I’ve said all I can say on the subject. You know my feelings so fire away if you like.

I have not promoted or advocated ANYTHING. A question was asked about weighing charges, and I answered HONESTLY.

As for the consistency and accuracy of my reloads, I have named names of AR members who have shot with me and can back up everything that I am saying.

As I said before, I KNEW when I posted my loading "procedure" that I would get flamed, and I have been.

Thanks for not letting me down!

quote:

Originally posted by MickinColo:

quote:

Wow, pretty harsh! I'm getting out of this one but before I do; In Jeff's defense he never promoted his method nor recommend it.

Yes he did! The mere fact that he mentioned that he went without a scale for 2 years is contemptible of normal reloading practice. If you find that defensible,,, I wonder?

"contemptible of normal reloading practice" What is, normal reloading practice? Could that be acceptable reloading practices, perhaps approved reloading practices or merely standard reloading practices? Did I miss out on the final? I don't recall that class. Maybe I was out sick? I've got some Jerusalem news for you, there are no standards in reloading! Only "guidelines as recommended" and a disclaimer that follows all those guidelines. Hence, no standard and with no standard there is no normal! Therefore, it's not fair to say, but as a matter of fact; it is the individual reloader that establishes his/her own standards. And/in so far all you have done to no avail, is question and further defame the standards of one with no evidence or knowledge at least to this point, that the standards of that one is unsafe. Further you have taken that one person's post out of context in that you have taken it as a promotional statement which does not exist. With the aforesaid, no one, let me say that again. No one including the author of the post (Jeff) has promoted his method within the original post/reply or any follow-up replies. Further this thing is a joke! Enough for Pete sakes! I only jumped in because someone (in my opinion) was being tarnished for no reason. I don't even know who Jeff is, but I do know that what he said is not dangerous nor is it suggestive in the way of advice! I thought it was kind of funny to tell you the truth and as far as any new-bee's are concerned, if they take what he said as advice, then a cranial cat scan needs to be performed on that new-bee and anyone caught selling him or her any equipment at all (let alone explosive powders) should be taken out in the middle of a vacant lot and gang slapped!

Is there a way i can block "mickincolo" from putting posts here? he needs help!

quote:

Did all the benchrest shooter that use dippers at the bench develop their dipping loads from the Lee chart or did they use scales?

Actually most of the ones I have shot with use a drum type measure and simply dial in the range of load they want to use with the specific powder, base upon the number on the adjustment stem.

Most know that (for example) using the numbered stem, and setting it to say 3+2 turns will give the the powder volume for a certain cartridge capacity. So they sit down set the powder measure and start cranking out loads, moving up or down to dial in just where they want to be, then record the setting. They might weigh it at home, but at the range they set it and adjust to conditions as needed.

I do about the same thing when working up loads for my rifles. I know from previous testing the range of almost all of the powders I use by the setting on the stem of the Uniflow. I weighed them and recorded the setting several years ago.

Since most of my calibers are off either the .308 or '06 case, I have overlapping setting from min to max loads. It isn't hard to decipher where to go to set the measure up for a load which requires 50grs of X powder. I simply refer to my chart, set the stem for just below and workup until I hit the load I am looking for or I change powders. It saves me time and expense of both running to and from the range, pulling bullets.

I personally am close to Jeff in that I haven't weighed a load other than curiosity for quite a while. I do however record the stem setting, and since I purchase components in bulk, it takes me quite a while to change lots. When I do I recheck things and go on my way.

If you think that the scale is the absolute in reloading your sadly mistaken. I have seen way more issues involving the setting on the scale being wrong or the wrong power being used than where someone said they used the wrong measure.

Also as has been mentioned, most all Lee die sets and even the dipper set come with instructions and data sheets either for the caliber or for the powders to be used with them. They are calibrated to dump within a margin and generally if anything are lower rather than higher when used. For a lot of folks this gives them a chance to load their own ammo using basic tools and with little expense.

Just because it don't agree with your idea doesn't mean it is a bad thing. You personally do not have to use it, but don't knock what works. Hell you might as well try to rework the insurance business cause you don't like your coverage.

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Sullivan:
...when I still had a scale, I weighed a few charges that I had "dipped". The chart proved to be accurate for the powders that I use which is mostly Varget. ...

It appears some of you folks are Arguing just to be Arguing. Fortunately " I " never do that.

My buddy Mick is rightfully concerned about getting the Rookies and Beginners confused, mislead, or as we call it where I come from jeffeed, teenScummed, tomeked, gibsoned, seafired, PT dentoned(use any of those meaningful terms interchangeably ).

However, Jeff Sullivan(nowhere close to jeffee) did mentioned he had "verified" the Dippers with a scale and he also mentioned he does not load to MAX.

I used Dippers(also Scale Verified) long ago and they got Bullets out of the Barrel. Perhaps the Powders had enough Variation in them back then that they contributed to the fluctuating Groups. Always blamed the rag pre-64 M70s, and still do.

Anyway, if you are a Beginner, heed Mick's warning and Jeff Sullivan's post about Verifying Dippers. You could create a totally unnecessary and unexpected seafire(Ka-Boom).

Let the Arguments resume.

I have to add some things here. There is absolutely nothing wrong with using Lee dippers. Lee although not my first choice, is a competent, longtime maker of affordable and SAFE reloading equipment. Their chart is as safe as Sierra's reloading manual data. They were both developed and there is the slight chance that someone goofed transcribing the data to the printed page, no mopre no less for either.

Volume charges vs weighed charges is the issue; not safety. It is a choice. Mec shotshell reloaders use bushings for different volumes. Fast shotgun powder has a heck of a lot more room for trouble than slower rifle powder.

As far as accuracy, 99.5% of us do not need to use ultimate precision benchrest techniques in our powder charges. There are far too many other variables to notice any effect. i.e. is the target exactly 100 yards, or is it 96 or perhaps 115? Is the target exactly at zero elevation or is it deflected up or down 5 - 15 degrees or more? As far as the ammunition, did you weigh and measure each projectile and piece of brass(after prepping of course)? Did you turn the necks as part of prep, true up the primer pockets? Did you check for runout on the loaded round? That to me is the piece of the puzzle that wipes out all of our other accuracy quirks. A Rockchucker and plain RCBS dies are great for what most of us do, but they will not do for that .5% who do all of the rest.

I started with a Lee loader too many years ago to remember when. It worked fine and the ammo was darn accurate. My first accessory was an RCBS hand priming unit, because I set a few off seating them in with a hammer/rod as the Lee loader provided for. My next acquisition was a scale, and that was so that I could experiment and try to achieve even better accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by bkmastr:
Is there a way i can block "mickincolo" from putting posts here? he needs help!

No one need to be blocked. It is my fault for posting my "methods". As I said, I knew that someone would challenge me, and I am a big boy and can take it.

What I do may not meet others level of reloading expertise, but I am confident enough with my ammo to put it's accuracy and consistency up against anyone's. As I said, I shoot nearly everyday, and whether you believe it or not is immaterial, I can and do shoot sub-MOA and "one hole" groups with my cobbled together ammo. I also kill a heck of a lot of deer and hogs with it.

Sorry for disrupting this thread.

BTW This one was killed Tuesday with my 9.3x62.

Jeff, first off, nice hog! Secondly you didn't disrupt this thread. Just like Hot Core said, some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing. thats fine tho i guess. If your method is proven safe, which it is, and it works for you, which it does, then go for it. I have been reloading, including shotgun, for close to 4 years now. and have scaled 85% of my loads. the 15% being for the 12 guage that do not get weighed with my mec. I'm sure i will probably still weigh every load. It just adds a little more confidence when i go out and shoot. I just wanted to get lots of opinions, and opinions are what i got!

As I posted, HC, Jeff did an excellent service to the newbie in that he suggested that good, accurate, SAFE ammo could be constructed without taking a second mortage on the house.
If there was any attitudes displayed, it was from Mickincolo with his snotty, holier than thou post.
Once again, those dippers with the accompanying charge chart have been around for quite a while and have been proofed by Lee and countless shooters.
No one has suggested that a scale wasn't a great addition to your reloading inventory but the posters were just as adament that the dippers do work. I still can't find anything in Jeff's post that suggests anyone do anything dangerous or irresponible.
I think you've jumped in on the side of Mickincolo because you can't stand to see a good argument without getting some of it.

quote:

Originally posted by bkmastr:
Jeff, first off, nice hog! Secondly you didn't disrupt this thread. Just like Hot Core said, some people just like to argue for the sake of arguing. thats fine tho i guess. If your method is proven safe, which it is, and it works for you, which it does, then go for it. I have been reloading, including shotgun, for close to 4 years now. and have scaled 85% of my loads. the 15% being for the 12 guage that do not get weighed with my mec. I'm sure i will probably still weigh every load. It just adds a little more confidence when i go out and shoot. I just wanted to get lots of opinions, and opinions are what i got!

Nice porker! Good looking dog, gun and what's with the machete in the back-round? Have fun dragging the thing out!

Hey now, you all take it easy on Mick. He is a good guy who was just looking out for the Beginners.

Just looked back through the thread and I see no Ringers, which surprises me. I'd "guess" everyone would enjoy a few together that has posted so far. If you all were near me, I'd even buy the first round of Blue Ribbons and a Biscuit for that fine lookin' hound. And the HOG has to be better lookin' than any gal teenScum or jeffee has ever dated.

Fine HOG indeed. I can smell the wallow mud just sitting here.

9.3x62? You usin' that on a Dare???

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
It appears some of you folks are Arguing just to be Arguing. Fortunately " I " never do that.

quote:

Originally posted by bkmastr:
I am just curious as to how many guys weight every load of powder. .....

bk,

I check-weigh the first 3 shotgun shells then if its right with my notes load the rest by volume. I weigh all pistol and rifle loads, put them on a load board in batches of 50 and visually inspect together before adding in the bullet.

I would recommend against any one loading for a rifle with lee dippers!

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Sullivan:


I use Lee Dippers, and I load regularly for 223, 308, 270, and 9.3x62. I use the chart provided to select the right dipper.

I consistently shoot MOA or better with my reloads in all calibers.

I like the Lee dippers, too. Even though I weigh every round, I use them for quick scoops when I don't want to set up the thrower or (the little one) as a trickler.

quote:

Originally posted by CaneCorso:

quote:

Originally posted by Jeff Sullivan:


I use Lee Dippers, and I load regularly for 223, 308, 270, and 9.3x62. I use the chart provided to select the right dipper.

I consistently shoot MOA or better with my reloads in all calibers.

I like the Lee dippers, too. Even though I weigh every round, I use them for quick scoops when I don't want to set up the thrower or (the little one) as a trickler.

When I'm loading for pure accuracy I turn into some whacked out anal nerd. I too use the dipper along with my medi-forber scale. Example: I need 44 grains of what-ever, so I use my 42 gr. dipper to start then use my fingers to trickle the exact amount like a chief with salt. Probably the same thing you do. Takes for ever to get a hundred rounds but it leaves no doubt that your powder charge is 100% perfect.