Everywhere I look these days, I see shooting products called "match grade", "benchrest grade", "special match grade", etc.

So far as I know, NONE of the various shooting products manufacturers' associations in the U.S. or Canada has ever established specifications for any such grades for ANY shooting products.

Does anyone know differently? If so, can you point me to the association-established specifications for those grades? Or is it just a self-assumed justification for increasing their prices?

Some of the individual barrel makers do publish the spec differences between their own in-house grading systems, but even that published material is not very comprehensive.

I guess I am coming down to an individual "rant" with all this, but I am really feeling irritated about manufacturers who hype their products by what I see as ficticious labelling.

True, they don'tmanage to reel any a great bulk of the fully experienced shooters or loaders (perhaps), but the bucks they fleece from newbys by suggesting their goods meets some special, accepted, industry-established level of precision alarms me.



I feel the same way about guys in North America who blithely call themselves "Master" gunsmiths. Oh? and which specific trade organization or guild bestowed that title?

There is one organization in the U.S. which requires application, peer review of sample work, and such, before gunsmiths can become members, but the great bulk of proclaimed "Master Gunsmiths" I have seen ads from do not appear to be members of THAT organization.

Am I all wrong with this, or does it irritate anyone else too?

Very good question AC ; I always wanted to know but was afraid to ask because I didn't want anyone to know I didn't know either !.

As far as I know Calibers are made too SAAMI Standards , least wise ammo manufactures still seem to think so .

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

Both cartridges and chambers have established SAAMI standards, and there may even be a SAAMI standard for a .22 LR MATCH chamber.

But a match grade trigger? Barrel? Powder Measure? Etc.?

AC,

All the ad hype you mention is indeed a stretch. I think most of the stuff you mention is "match grade" or whatever other "grade" is because they say it is and get away with it. Sorta like GM's ad campaign a few years back touting their GMC Truck line as "professional grade". The only reason it was "professional grade" was because they said it was. It all reminds me of the ad copy used by Herter's 50 odd years ago.

Match grade is right up there with Tactical for today's buzzwords
associated with weapons and assorted gear.

dxr

quote:

Originally posted by doctorxring:
Match grade is right up there with Tactical for today's buzzwords
associated with weapons and assorted gear.

dxr

Yup, and the ranges are full of wanabee "Tactical" types these days.

Yup, and everybody that's been in the service in the last 10 years was a sniper.

Or ":Special Forces"!!!!
Peter

Actually, I would not feel uncomfortable interpreting "match grade" as "made to tighter tolerances", for example. The barrel manufacturers for example do make different grade barrels, and as I understand it, the differences are "air gauged" to certain tolerances. Bullet manufacturers also make match bullets, presumably more carefully inspected and the "out of tolerence" bullets a re rejected.
Peter.

I have it from folks that worked at Pac Nor, that their two grades of barrels, Regular and Super Match.. are made to the same tolerances.. and one is just as good as the other...

however, the customers seem to want something with a name of match or super match on it, and are willing to pay extra for the name....

if you don't offer it, they are willing to go to another manufacturer who will plug the name on a product...

so Pac Nor offers the trendy name and price to cater to those that seem to think they need it..

but insiders will tell you that the NON Super Grade Barrels have the exact tolerances and quality levels...

names like 'match grade' are wanted by customers, basically because of their egos.. they think they need to have the fancier name...

Kinda why Yuppies buy Beamers.. Old Folks buy Cadillacs etc..

It was summed up pretty well on one of those Shampoo commericals years ago... It cost more, But I am worth it.......

Mer personally, my ego isn't that grandeois... I use what works....

Super Premium Stuff, for most folks is like putting HighTEST in a Volkswagen.. it doesn't make it go any darn faster...and doesn't make them shoot any better...

but it sure impresses their friends!

hey look how much money I can spend on this toy!!!!

I saw that when I went to a 1000 yd match one time... guys were shooting rifle that cost $4k to $6k... with high end optics in the $1500 to $3000 ranges.. with high power...and had that superior gloating attitudes standing over their equipment....

at the end of the day, they put their fancy rifles back into their fancy cases.. got in their $500.00 Datsun and went home...

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
Yup, and everybody that's been in the service in the last 10 years was a sniper.

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Or ":Special Forces"!!!!
Peter

So unfortunately true !!

Ken....

quote:

Originally posted by doctorxring:
Match grade is right up there with Tactical for today's buzzwords
associated with weapons and assorted gear.

dxr

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
...So far as I know, NONE of the various shooting products manufacturers' associations in the U.S. or Canada has ever established specifications for any such grades for ANY shooting products.

Does anyone know differently? If so, can you point me to the association-established specifications for those grades? Or is it just a self-assumed justification for increasing their prices?...

Hey AC, Nice question which I've been pondering throughout the day. And yes indeed, it really does grind on me when the Beginners get PTdentoned, flim-flammed, or mislead by anyone.

To answer your question quickly, I believe the combined and analized, first-hand knowledge of large groups of Shooters determines what creates the potential for Match Grade Accuracy and what doesn't.
-----

I believe there are Match Grade Bullets. By that, I mean that over a long enough period of time, shooting a variety of Bullets, there are some that will "typically" be more Accurate than others.

I believe there are Reloading Methods and Techniques that if done properly, will allow Cartridges to become closer to Match Grade Accuracy, when compared to quicker less systematic Reloading.

I believe the Design of some Rifles enhances their ability to achieve Match Grade Accuracy much easier than others. Same with building a precision rifle, some Tricks do help increase the Match Grade Accuracy potential and some are simply cosmetic.

I believe there are actual Shooting Positions which assist in gaining better Match Grade Accuracy.

I believe your overall physical health resulting in a Low Heartbeat and easy breathing help acheive better Match Grade Accuracy.

Combining all the above creates a Cumulative Accuracy Enhancement. And the result from that is Match Grade Accuracy.
-----

However, nothing about the above is set in concrete. Occasionally some Bullets, which a person expects to shoot the very best, are occasionally bested by a different Bullet. Our Techniques and Methods change with time and understanding of what is really happening.

No, I know of no Organization that puts a Seal-of-Approval on products which results in a Match Grade Certification. But I do believe Match Grade is a valid term.

I know three people that I consider Master GunSmiths. But they would not be Master GunSmiths for the Termite Food lovers. They do build Match Grade rifles you can Hunt with.

Good Hunting and clean (Match Grade Accuracy) 1-shot Kills.

"Tactical" shooting equipment is painted flat black and costs 25% more while "Match" shooting equipment is nice and shiny and costs 25% more.

That reminds me of the CCI Benchrest primers. I know they are the same as the reg. ones, but I cant help myself from reaching for them at the store when they have them in stock.

I don't know about the other brands but " Federal Match Grade " Primers are just that , they are different from their Std. line .

Yes AC ; SAMMI are just that ; Standards for Chambers as well as Ammo . Other wise I would just use .308 in my .224 and call it good ! .
Shoot Straight Know Your Target. ...

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
I don't know about the other brands but " Federal Match Grade " Primers are just that , they are different from their Std. line .

My understanding is that Federal primers and Federal Match Grade primers are the same so far as cup materials and dimensions, anvil materials and dimensions, and priming compund.

What IS supposed to be different is the number of inspectors and inspections their Match Grade primers are subject to during "construction". Presumably that cuts down on (though does not completely eliminate) the number of primers in a carton with cocked anvils, substandard amounts of priming compound, and so on. My own experience, at least with Federals and Winchesters, is that their regular products are so good that there is no discernable difference between it and "match grade"....except hype and price.


A few years ago, CCI would give the same exact explanation for their BR primers vs. their regular primers if anyone asked. I don't know about what explanation of the differences a person would get from CCI now.


Having used Federal Match, Federal "regular", and ordinary Winchester "SRP" primers in bvenchrest competition over an 8-year period, I can tell you, ALL THREE produced winning accuracy. So why was one of them called match grade, and two not? Wouldn't a person think all of the ones winning matches interchangeably should be considered "match grade"...? I can, of course, see why Federal and CCI charge more for primers made with more labour, so I give Federal and CCI a pass on that...they had to establish the difference somehow, and the different name is how they chose to do it. But what does the industry say? Is there a required minimum industry standard you can be sure the primers meet if they are called match grade? NO....not really.


As to "match grade" generally meaning the manufacturer builds that item or items to higher standards than their other stuff, I can almost buy that. Just not quite. If their ordinary stuff is built about as well as pig poop, and their "match grade" stuff is made to mediocre, but still somewhat improved standards, what does that gain a shooter?

If there is no industry-sanctioned way of judging quality, then I feel the "Match Grade" claim is a farce. And if a manufacturer is trying to con me with the names he puts on stuff, then I'm not sure I want to trust him with the parts of the product other than the name.

I guess the point is well enough made to quit ranting about it.

The real test of "match grade" to me is, "Do successful match shooters actually use the stuff for winning matches? If not, why not?"

For those without long experience of their own in this game, that can be an important question.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
I don't know about the other brands but " Federal Match Grade " Primers are just that , they are different from their Std. line .

My understanding is that Federal primers and Federal Match Grade primers are the same so far as cup materials and dimensions, anvil materials and dimensions, and priming compund.

What IS supposed to be different is the number of inspectors and inspections their Match Grade primers are subject to during "construction". Presumably that cuts down on (though does not completely eliminate) the number of primers in a carton with cocked anvils, substandard amounts of priming compound, and so on. My own experience, at least with Federals and Winchesters, is that their regular products are so good that there is no discernable difference between it and "match grade"....except hype and price.


A few years ago, CCI would give the same exact explanation for their BR primers vs. their regular primers if anyone asked. I don't know about what explanation of the differences a person would get from CCI now.


Having used Federal Match, Federal "regular", and ordinary Winchester "SRP" primers in bvenchrest competition over an 8-year period, I can tell you, ALL THREE produced winning accuracy. So why was one of them called match grade, and two not? Wouldn't a person think all of the ones winning matches interchangeably should be considered "match grade"...? I can, of course, see why Federal and CCI charge more for primers made with more labour, so I give Federal and CCI a pass on that...they had to establish the difference somehow, and the different name is how they chose to do it. But what does the industry say? Is there a required minimum industry standard you can be sure the primers meet if they are called match grade? NO....not really.


.

I dont agree with you about the primers being the same.M.L.McPhearson wrote an article for The Precision Shooter about an extensive study he did on Primers.He measured flash ,heat and a bazillion other facters that only the anal compulsive care about.He found Match primers to be more consistant in flash size and heat than other primers.So I think there is a little more going on with them than what you think.

We do not put a match grade tag on our products but I would appreciate some comment about this.

Hot air balloons blown up by the marketing communication departments and agencies.

It did not occur to me that someone would think that the processes in the link above are anything but the truth and are followed as standard procedure in our little factory.

The second last paragraph states:
"Our factory is open to visitors at any (reasonable) time and anyone who has been here will verify that they have seen the processes described in action."

Here is an open invitation to DUK, or anyone you want to send, to come and see for yourself what we do.

By the way, we are not big enough to have a marketing department or agency. We just write it up and take the pictures ourselves and tell it like it is.

Gerard,

this criticism was not intended against those small and hard-working firms which I deeply respect. Rather, against the big buck corporations which manufacture junk, spend enormous amounts of money and charge astronomical prices becaus emostconsumers let themselves be brainwashed.

"Carbonated" beverages come to mind, manufacturing cost of the content of on 300 ml-can 2 cent. rather look at these Air Jordan sneakers, manufacturing costs less than 5 bucks, parents know for what they sell...

Thanks for the clarification DUK.

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:


I dont agree with you about the primers being the same. M.L.McPhearson wrote an article for The Precision Shooter about an extensive study he did on Primers. He measured flash ,heat and a bazillion other facters that only the anal compulsive care about.He found Match primers to be more consistant in flash size and heat than other primers. So I think there is a little more going on with them than what you think.

I am only repeating what Federal used to tell gunwriters and editors. Figured they might know the truth of the matter... It is possible of course, that things have changed and there now is a difference. If so, it sure doesn't show on paper so far as I have seen.

There ARE differences from batch to batch whether "match" or not, but that goes for all primers AND powders

And I believe I may have at least as much BR competition experience as Mac does....what better test of "match grade" is there other than using the products in matches to see if they do better than other similar products from the same or other manufacturers?


(None of my match shooting experince is in the last few years since my serious health problems began in 2004, but had a pretty fair amount from 1976-2003.)

Anyway, if the difference IS closer inspection, which I believe it is, that should produce exactly what you describe. I.e., more consistency, whether of of heat, of flash size, or more consistency of any other aspect.

Would be interesting to see if Federal would release the specs for each for the public...if not, I wonder why not?

quote:

Originally posted by Gerard:
We do not put a match grade tag on our products but I would appreciate some comment about this.

Gerard -

It is firms like yours which make the flim-flam of the big boy marketers so obvious. "Match Grade" stuff doesn't need a label saying that it is.

Experienced shooters come to recognize quality when they see & use it, and they use the good stuff in matches. Sometimes they win those matches with it. That is real no-hype "Match Grade" in my eyes.


And yes, I know there are a lot of really good bullets out there, improving every year too, which really are "Match Grade". Most of them don't bother to call themselves that either. With some, they are already selling virtually every bullet they have the capacity to produce....mainly to match shooters. They don't need any pressure to produce more at the risk of having quality drop, even a little bit.

They know quality is measured by figures other than just sales volume.

Good on you, guy.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
Yup, and everybody that's been in the service in the last 10 years was a sniper.

Heck I made PFC three times. roger

AC;
My understanding is that Federal primers and Federal Match Grade primers are the same so far as cup materials and dimensions, anvil materials and dimensions, and priming compund.

This is INCORRECT I can assure you the Mixture is indeed Different It's Hotter . Some where one of the members posted a web page of primer ignition photos , anybody know where that site is ?

I have personally been in the Federal and Winchester ( Olin ) Plants . Behind the curtain up close industrial collaboration tour A-Z details .

FYI; A few years back 4-6 something like that , I had to send a few " Match Grade primers " back too Federal . Seems someone had a Bad Monday or a Rushed Friday . I discovered half a dozen out of Spec. Dia. wise primers in a particular lot .

How did I know this ?. Two wouldn't even go into the primer tube !. Federal Took Care of it ASAP I spoke to a certain party at the plant . They sent me a Full Case at NC. Apologized profusely . I sent 5K in got 20K in return !.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

Or ":Special Forces"!!!!
Peter

Hey I was one of those in the Army Medical Corp... 'Bedpan Commando!'

All,

I do not want to high jack this thread. It seems that the products and the title "Master Gunsmith" being discussed does not apply to us.

We make only Match Grade bullets and my title is "General Manager - Master Bulletsmith". If you all are satified that these terms apply to our product and to me then I won't expand my thought. If you feel that I need to provide an explaination for these terms then I will be happy to do so.

Regards,
Eric Stecker
Berger Bullets

One barrel company I know of has "air gauged" barrels and standard barrels. Both type barrels come off of the same machinery, same workers. The only difference is one is air gauged and one is not. The standard barrels are not rejects from the air gauge station. I'm told there are some rejects from the air gauge station and some from the QA of the standard barrels (they hold 'em up to a light and look up them). They're both put into a barrel and sold as scrap.

quote:

Originally posted by Eric Stecker:
All,

We make only Match Grade bullets and my title is "General Manager - Master Bulletsmith". If you all are satified that these terms apply to our product and to me

.

I do! roger

quote:

Originally posted by Eric Stecker:
All,

We make only Match Grade bullets and my title is "General Manager - Master Bulletsmith". If you all are satified that these terms apply to our product and to me

.



I sm glad to hear that is still true. I know when Berger bullets first came into being it was surely true. I used to buy bullets from Walt at his house in SW Phoenix, where he and his spouse made them in his garage.

I also know that pretty much everyone who used them knew they were appropriate for use in matches. Walt and Eunice didn't have to label them "match grade" as opposed to something else. They were just called "Berger Bullets", and everyone know what the "Berger" on the box meant....GOOD bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr.K:
AC;
My understanding is that Federal primers and Federal Match Grade primers are the same so far as cup materials and dimensions, anvil materials and dimensions, and priming compund.

This is INCORRECT I can assure you the Mixture is indeed Different It's Hotter .

So, you are telling us all that a hotter mixture makes a better primer?

C'mon, guy, get serious here.

Either way, I have no criticism of Federal Match Grade primers, whether the difference is in the mixture or more inspection. That's why I gave them a "Pass" from my general criticism of the use of the hyped commercial use of the term" match grade", saying that my criticism of the haphazard use of the term for sales purposes did not apply to them or to CCI-BR, either one.

More inspection, if that is the difference, goes a long way toward avoiding variations in performance, which is what I look for in the components I use in matches.

Do not know the specific difference between primers, std. vs Federal Gold Medal Match, but have shot for years and always used the Gold Medal Match grade and worked fine for me. Now, as to match grade items, Lake City, gov't source, does mfg. both 308 Match and 30-06 Match brass and have several gallon jugs of both new. Do they shoot any better than LC brass not so marked?? Don't know for Match labeled brass is all I shoot as far as military surplus brass is concerned. From time to time you will see 223 Match Brass, Lake City, offered and from what I have been told Lake City has never mfg. any 223 brass so marked???? Believe you would be able to refer to a gun builder belonging to the "Guild" as a master gunsmith without much reservation, but in this country do not have the organization that is prevalent in Europe for establishing skill levels. Probably something we should have, but who wants the "government" involvment.
We do not have government proof houses either and seem to get along just fine.

quote:

Originally posted by stillbeeman:
Yup, and everybody that's been in the service in the last 10 years was a sniper.

Very astute, you notice that too.

If you want to hear some really high powered Male Bovine Manure read the Sniper sites. Everybody owns a Night Force or U.S. Optics scope so they can look down their noses at the peons.

The BS stacked underneath my computer screen got soooo deep I quit visiting those sites.

I got along fie in 'nam using standard fatigues and underwear, combat boots.

The only tacticool equipment I used was a Swenson preped 45ACP and a Bo Randall Knife.

Best wishes, Bill