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I just recently purchased a Brno mod 21 in 8x60S caliber. My question is can I use 8x57 dies to neck size a few 8x60s brass for the time being and to test fire the rifle, before I buy brass and dies for the 8x60s.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | ||
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Ray PPU makes brass for the 8x60 and they are cheap and very good. Just order them. Yes you can play with a set of 8x57 but why mess with that ? Check E-bay, I think there was a set of used 8x60 on there a couple of weeks ago. | |||
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I bought RWS Brand 8x60 cases from Huntington’s years ago. I waited to work up loads until my dies came in. My 8x60 is a Mannlicher Schoenauer, my son used it to take a nice 140 class buck this season. | |||
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Very cool purchase! "Evil is powerless if the good are unafraid" -- Ronald Reagan "Ignorance of The People gives strength to totalitarians." Want to make just about anything work better? Keep the government as far away from it as possible, then step back and behold the wonderment and goodness. | |||
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Not only can you neck size with 8x57 dies, you can also full length resize. The two cartridges are identical except for length. Simply set the 8x57 die only as deep in the press as will bump the shoulder the desired amount and there you have it. The die doesn't contact the rear half-inch of the case, anyway, so the difference is nil. Cases? You may want properly headstamped cases, but if that's not an issue for you then make cases from .30-06 with an 8x57 die in the same way you would "full length size" with it. You'll have about 5mm of neck to trim off. I note that several of the above responses referred to "8x60" rather than "8x60S". The two are different in that the "8x60" uses a .318" bullet while the "8x60S" uses a .323" bullet. I'm sure you know this, but using a regular 8x57 die for an 8x60 would result in a neck too loose to hold the bullet. | |||
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There are actually 3 versions me of the 8x60. The 8x60I which is .318 The 8x60S which is .323 And the 8x60 Magnum All share the same Case dimensions except for bullet diameter. The Magnum version was only made in the .323 bullet diameter. It was just loaded hotter. My rifle says Magnum behind the caliber designation. | |||
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I have dies, brass and bullets for the 8x60 as they got here today...but I was just curious if I could load 8x60s in a 8x57 die and apparently I can.. My next queston is does anyone here have any loads for the 180 Nosler or any bullet in that class weight or close...Load data is scarce. I know I can start with 8x57 max loads and work up, but would rather someone give me some loads they like that are max or near max. Im thinking I could just add 5% to 8x57 book max and Im betting my Brno mod 21 8x60S has a long throat..and if so I should be able to duplicate the 8mm/06, a round Ive always liked. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray, My current load using 180 grain Nosler BT is as follows. COAL: 3.226 CCI Large Rifle Primer 48.0 grains RL-15 Shoots very nice in my M-S. My son used it to take his buck at 280 yards | |||
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Ray All my data is using PPU brass. Since case capacity is slightly greater than the 8x57 most loads listed as Max for the 8x57 would be starting to mid range loads in the 8x60. Max 8x57 loads minus a gr or two would be a good place to start. With the 175 to 180 gr bullets I found my rifle likes Varget. With the 175 gr Sierra 53 grs of Varget produces 1/2 inch 100 yd groups. 54 grs is near max in my rifle so I would suggest dropping to about 50 grs to start. | |||
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The Brno M21/22 in 8x60 is a post WW 2 offering and subject to Czech proofing thus a .323 bullet and will safely shoot the "standard" and "magnum / Magnum Bombe" loadings. There are two versions of the 8x60 , the J version ie .318 bore which was the result of converting old .318 7x57 I or IJ barrels. The S version was the version factories offered the cartridge in. The "Magnum" and "Magnum Bombe" versions are simply high pressure loadings ie basic cartridge in 8x60 S but loaded to a higher velocity and pressure. as to the issue of a long vs short throat there is only one throat for the 8x60S and its plenty long! longer than any 8mm bullet ! 34 mm in fact  | |||
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So Alf, CAn you email some 8x60s max loads for the magnum/bombe caliber, Iwill cut back on them and work up my own load..I like this gun and it should be as good as the great 8mm/06 it would seem..Load data with US powders is all but naught!! RAy Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray I shoot both a 8x57 IS in Brno M21 as well as a M21 in 8x60 S There are good loads available for the 57 but the 60 S has become a problem because RWS quit making ammo and cases for it.  I still use cases made by Ken Stewart for my 8x60S I have a Wiederladen which still lists it. Here are some of my notes. a Little McGivering is in order :  Load data for the 8x60S: The only reliable printed data in load manuals can be found in the RWS load manual “ Wiederladen” The data is given in metric using RWS bullets and using Rottweill powders so retro engineering has to be done to come up with equivalences. I use the CIP homologation data sheets as starting point: CIP data sheet 8x60S: M = 25 PT max = 4050 Bar PK = 4658 Bar PE = 5060 J EE = 4285 Joule = 3160.454 ft pounds @ 1.25 the proof pressure: 1.25 = 4285 joule 1.15 = x joule x = 1.15 x 4285 / 1.25 = 3942 joule = 2907.47 foot pounds The Peak individual kinetic energy allowable at 1.15 peak allowable pressure = 2907.47 foot pounds. I would not go above this even if cases may not show pressure signs On a 170 gr bullet load to 2751 fps which would be the velocity equal to a peak pressure of 1.15 peak average pressure. Barnes make a TSX in 180 gr and 200 gr I find the 180 gr useful for the 8x60 S as it corresponds well with the RWS Kegelspitze bullet of similar weight 11.7 gm The Barnes 180 TSX weighs 11.66 gm (close enough ! ) Nosler offer 180 gr bullets but no Partition in this weight 180 gr @ 2697 fps will be at a 1.15 of PT max R 907 = 54.5 = 835 m/s = 2739 fps So we see Wiederladen's max load actually tops the 1.15 x peak mean pressure by 100 fps. R 907 is the equivalent of Reloader 15 and H 380 H414 also works The R907 load is 52 to 54 gr 8mm -06 ( 8 x63.5) starting loads are a easy departure point for the 8x60S Case capacities 8x60 S = +/- 64 gr water 8mm-06 = 70 gr water PT max = maximum average pressure (bar) PTc max = maximum average pressure "conformal" (bar) PK = 1,15 Pmax = maximum statistical individual pressure (bar) PE = 1,25 Pmax = mean proof pressure (bar) M = location of the pressure take (mm) EE = proof kinetic energy (Joule) (M) is that defined by the manuf | |||
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Alf PPU / Privi Partizan makes ammo and brass Camdix Krugersdorp normally have stock also Hoeneber make some Regards | |||
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Privi is my now go to source for many Euro's and they are not that expensive ! | |||
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"Factories" offered both the .318" and .323" groove diameter versions. Sako, for instance, sold both in Europe chambered in their FN Mauser rifle of the 1950's. | |||
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Ive digested all the info on this thread, and come to the conclusion after a good deal of shooting and chronographing. and have about arrived at the 5% rule over the 8x57 will give me a good load with most powders Ive tried for the 8x60-S..Its almost impossible to find any load data with US powders..Thanks to all for your imput. I am using PPU brass almost altogether these days in most calibers. My testing to date has been with the 150 Speer, 250 Woodleigh, 200 gr. Speer, and the 180 gr. Nosler Bal. Tip. which btw is a fairly tough bullet at 2800 plus a tad FPS in dry magazines and dry magazines is hard on bullet. Eagle Dad, I used your 48 gr. of RL-15 as a starter base, added the 5% rule and established 51 grs was near max or close, I got a super accurate load at 50 grs. and no sign at all of pressure, in fact seemed rather mild, so I am working the the designated 54 grs mentioned above and beyond to absolute max and then back to sanity from that point... I intend to chronograph this load and may go beyond 50 grs. based on the results of that, and keeping in mind my barrel length of 24 inch rifle. Once I establish the max load with RL-15 then follow up with other powders will be a cake walk..I enjoy such projects, its a feeling of accomplishment if one survives with all his fingers and eyeballs!  Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Yeah my load is not very hot (easpecially given its 8x60S Magnum chalet marking) but my rifle shoots it very well. I will stick with it at this point. At least until I get time to play with it some more. Glad you are enjoying yours. Merry Christmas | |||
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My gun just barely maxed out at 54 grs. and I think I could go beyond, but Im going to have a standard load for myself of 52 or 53 grs. depending on accuracy, and the recoil with that skinny stock is apparent for sure...The 8x60S is the European version of the 338-06 or the 35 Whelen for all practical purposes..I will work up a max load with Varget, another with RL-17 (I expect a lot with the RL-17) and then start chronographing the loads, and go from there. If nothing else I'll make some loads available to to those new to the 8x60-S before I sell it..Im trying desperately to scale down my guns to a 7x57, 8x57, 30-06, 338 and grandpaws guns..and one shotgun and two pistols. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray I have three rifles in 8x60 all are 323 One Mannlicher magnum bombee ,one brno zg47 and an european stutzen oberndorf Do you understand some spanish? if not I translate all my records that are in excell . Happy new year | |||
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GTrotz, I can't thank you enough for the volumes of exciting information on loading the 8x60S, a corocopia of great reloading and recording, then you having to translate it to English and emailing it to me.. By the way I do speak Spanish fairly fluently,Porque me familia teine una rancho este lado de Rio Grande, cerca de pueblo Boquillas Mexico, perro me lingua is poco crudo esta dias porque no usando de lingua mucho in la estado Idao. Vaya con Dios, amigo mio, Raymundo aka "Latigo" es me sobre nombre con los vaqueros en la rancho, Quando muy flako en me youth...  can't spell in either language.Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Rymundo aka latigo cuando eras muy flaco en tu juventud.( asi es la traduccion amigo) I enjoy the information is good for you ,because when I start looking for them it was not easy to get it. good shoting | |||
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So Ray....are you going to share any of this wealth of 8x60 data ?? Hopefully some of the powder and bullets are available in North America. | |||
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Gtrozt, Muchos gracias amigo mio, no habla mucho de lengua in Idaho, Y no requerdo los palabras o verbas correcto. Snowman, I will share that information in a day or two, I just came down with Pneumonia, bad stuff. If I forget remind me again. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Snowman, I'll try to keep this info short and to the point and only quote loads that apply. there are half grs. in some and I skipped that as it changed nothing..only the even number were quoted velocity wise..Use an brass and 210 primers. I did. Alao I had no matching bullets but used the same weight and noting much changed. 200 gr. T-mantle..54 to 56 grs. AA4350 2365,2425,2456 FPS 200 gr, T mantle 50 to 55.5 grs of AA2700 2358,2381,2451,2559,2583, FPS 200 gr. T mantle, 52.5 and 54 grs. of RL-15 2613, and 2675 FPS 185 gr. (plated brass) 54 and 55 grs of RL-15 2663 and 2696 175 gr. (plated brass) 51 to 54 grs of IMR4895 2648,2660,2730,(53.5=2754)2770, 175 gr. (plated Win.) 55 & 56 grs of RL-15 for 2712 and 2756. 195 Horn. (from 06 brass) 52 grs of IMR 4895 gave 2601 best load, fast. 200 gr. T mantle best load: RL-15 best 52.5 gave 2601 and 54 gave 2677 These are the best loads IMO, and they are up to max and his figures match my test on the Chronograph. I Believe IMR-4895 and RL-15 are the best two powders BUT I certainly intend to work up max loads with RL-17 as I 99% sure that will be the all time powder in the 8x60 and 8x57. All loads were safe in my Brno mod. 21, I could have gone further but these are some outstanding velocities and saw no need..As a matter of fact I can shoot 54 grs. of RL-15 in my 8x57 with a 180 gr Nosler for 2773 fps as I recall, and that duplicates the 30-06, both of which will do a little better.. Good guns these 8 MMs, I see no need for a belted case or more velocity, if more range is the quest then go with a 300 WBY. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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