The following table lists a computer generated ballistic comparison for various calibers at a 500 yard range. I thought it was quite interesting how little difference there was between the various rounds (The starkest difference was the muzzle energy. Bigger is really better in this regard). I doubt very many shooters (especially myself) could discern such slight differences under field conditions. This chart would almost render the conclusion that the never-ending ballistic arguments shooters engage in is largely a moot point with personal preference(s) ruling the outcome. But such bland mathematical pragmatism sure kills a gun nut�s fun doesn�t it .

What do you all think?

Good Shooting, HBB

The figures are Range: 500 Yards 1. Muzzle Velocity 2. Trajectory 3. Actual Drop 4. Time of Flight 5. Muzzle Energy 6. Wind Drift -10mph crosswind. Zero Range was 225 Yards for all Calibers.

.224 80 grain btsp @ 3100 fps:
500 2102 -34.62 60.37 0.59 785 18.34

.243 105 grain btsp@ 3100 fps
500 2194 -33.13 58.6 0.58 1122 16.17

.257 115 grain btsp@3100 fps
500 2178 -33.39 58.91 0.58 1211 16.55

.264 120 grain btsp @3100 fps
500 2167 -33.55 59.1 0.58 1251 16.79

.277 140 grain btsp@ 3100 fps
500 2214 -32.82 58.24 0.58 1524 15.74

.284 160 grain btsp@3100 fps
500 2280 -31.86 57.08 0.57 1847 14.29

.308 180 btsp @ 3100fps
500 2246 -32.35 57.67 0.57 2016 15.03

.323 220 grain btsp@ 3100 fps
500 2324 -31.22 56.32 0.56 2639 13.35

.338 250 grain btsp@3100fps
500 2349 -30.89 55.92 0.56 3063 12.84

All right..listen, stay calm and listen to the nice men in black. It's not that you've done anything wrong, mr. hillbillybear, its just that in the interests of the whole shooting industry, you will have to be..er.."dealt with". You see, you know too much...of course there is no real practical reason to have over 100 different calibers..but you see it keeps the wheels of industry rolling..and you don't want that to stop do you? do you? do you? just follow the shiny ball back and forth and everything will be all right......

.338 250 grain btsp@3100fps
500 2349 -30.89 55.92 0.56 3063 12.84

hmm,
that's a biggin... 3100 fps? Does the 338/378 go that fast?
jeffe

JO,
You are correct on the .338 velocity.
Hodgdon's website lists the following as a maximum velocity from a 26 inch 338-378 WBY.

250 GR. HDY SP(Maximum Loads)
DIA. .338" COL: 3.660"
H1000 109.0 2989 53,900 CUP
H4831 101.0 2951 53,800 CUP

3100fps+ might be possible with some of the long barrelled improved variations of the giant .338's

Good Shooting,
HBB

Here is a 300 yard table based on plausible, real-world velocities available from average hunting type rifles. Again the differences are negligible with no super whiz bang advantage to any caliber.

The muzzle velocities are 2950 fps with a 200 yard zero.

.243 100 grain btsp @ 2950 fps
300 2374 -6.93 21.57 0.34 1251 6.47

.257 115 btsp @2950 fps
300 2389 -6.87 21.47 0.34 1457 6.28

.264 140btsp@ 2950 fps
300 2460 -6.63 21.06 0.34 1881 5.43

.277 130 btsp @ 2950 fps
300 2374 -6.93 21.57 0.34 1627 6.47

.284 150 btsp @ 2950 fps
300 2423 -6.75 21.27 0.34 1956 5.87

.308 180btsp @2950 fps
300 2432 -6.72 21.22 0.34 2364 5.75

.323 220 btsp @ 2950 fps
300 2482 -6.55 20.93 0.34 3009 5.17

.338 250 btsp @2950
300 2497 -6.5 20.84 0.33 3461 4.99

.375 260 btsp @ 2950
300 2419 -6.76 21.29 0.34 3378 5.91

I do not find this sort of computer generated comparison useful at all. It is interesting only in so far as it generates an intelligent discussion. By abitrarily picking bullet weights and then assigning the same velocity across the board, you've produced some data which has lttle relationship to the world I live in. I'm going to pick on your original post as I've had a day to think about it.

The .223 load with an 80 bullet at 3100 fps would be possible only in something like a Swift that had been rebarreled to a 1 in 8 twist, or out of the handful of 220 Howells in the world. The .224 80 grain sierra is a specialty long range bullet, the vast majority of them exiting the barrels of AR match rifles at 2500 fps.

The .243 105 grain loading would be a 6mm-284 or possibly a .240 WBY

The .257 is too fast for the Roberts, but the WBY could beat it by 250 fps

The .264 load is similar. The 6.5x55 can't do it, even from a 28" barrel, while the Win Mag can do a couple of hundred fps better

The .270 load would be a WBY

The 7mm is possible from a variety of magnum chamberings, as is the .308 load.

I don't know what might push that .323 bullet to 3100 fps, but it's not a saami spec 8mm Rem magnum load.

That .338 diameter 250 grainer is traveling a full 300 fps faster than the 340 WBY mag can sanely go, it's even 100 fps faster than my Hogdon manual shows for the .338x378 Keith-Thompson Magnum.

In the world I live in, The comparison goes more like this:

55 grain .224 bullet at 3,800 fps
140 grain .264 at 2,600
130 grain .277 at 3,350
180 grain .308 at 2,700
250 grain .358 at 2,500

BD

BD,
Sorry you've had a rough day and welcome to the forums.

The comparision (especially when knocked down to 2950) is a valid one. If you looked at sectional densities, and use, other than the 338 and 323, these are the around .250 SDs that are perfect for north armerican game. The SD of .250 or higher intimates that the bullet will hold together (and except in BTs, it might ) and that it will have a fairly high BC if the bullets are the same SHAPE. These are hunting type bullets (i wont argue the fact that I dont think BT are hunting bullets) and the idea was to point out what happens down range, as an interesting topic.

This is especially important when one is making choices to buying a new gun, in a powerful caliber, that will be a hunting gun, under lots of circumstance.

here's the cal and SDs
cal SD
243 .242
257 .249
264 .287
277 .242
284 .266
308 .271
323 .301 (different class bullet)
338 .313 (different class bullet)
375 .264

As you can see, it might have been a better chioce, for comparibility, to have chosen the closest to the same SD as possible, that being 120 in 264 and 165 in 308, but I think his point was also bullets commonly shot in mags.

jeffe

HillBillyBear and others,
This reminds me of a situation that I had many years ago. I had worked up an accurate load for my .357 Mag and it was an excellent load in my weapon and left the muzzle at 1664FPS. My brother has an identical weapon - same make - model - and only a few serial numbers apart. From his gun it shot accurately but the velocity was only 1550+ a little.

Computer generated lists are only as valid as the data represents your own weapon. Some shoot a load faster than others - some won't shoot a particular load at all well. I suggest the you make the comparisons with your own data.

PaulS

Jeffe, I'm actually having a pretty good day. Sorry if I came across pissy, that was not my intention.

Jeffe, I'm actually having a pretty good day. Sorry if I came across pissy, that was not my intention.

I think you and Hillbillybear are missing my point. If you take a bunch of bullets of similar BC and launch them at the same velocity of course you'll have very similar trajectories. What does that have to do with choosing a particular chambering or rifle?

IMHO the interesting thing about the wide variety of chamberings available is their different capabilities, not the fact that they can all be loaded to equal trajectories if we choose to do so.

As I'm a big fan of sectional density, my hunting rifles are an old cut down swede in 6.5x55 and a .270 WBY mag. I love the swede for it's ability to handle 100 grainers thru 160s, keeping them all on target at 100 yards with no change in scope settings. It will do this with a wide variety of powders, even surplus, and it's not real picky about component brand names. The WBY is not very versatile, and it's much pickier about what I feed it, but it sure can do some things the old swede cannot, and do them way out there.

My next dilema is in the choice of a coyote gun. Sould I stick with something tried and true, available from the factory like a .22-250, or the Swift? 55 grainers at 3800 will sure kill the dogs. Or should I try the .220 Howell? Lower pressure, better brass and barrel life, and designed to throw those 80 grainers. At 400 yards on a windy day the 80 grainers come out ahead, even though they started the trip a bit slower.

So many cartridges, so little time. BD

Hi Folks,
Take a look at this set of figures and let me know what U think.
HBB

Ballistics Comparison

Non-Magnum Rounds: 200 Yard Zero

These loads were taken from the Speer #12 Manual( Because Speer used real rifles instead of pressure barrels) and run through the same ballistics program as the other posts.

.223 Rem. 52 grain bthp @ 3448 fps (.253 BC) Test Rifle: Ruger 77 MkII w/ 22 in bbl.
500 1181 -60.78 83.25 0.77 161 56.94

.243 Win. 100 grain btsp @ 2766 fps (.430 BC) Test Rifle: Ruger 77 Mk II w 22 in barrel
500 1810 -48.64 77.47 0.67 727 22.48

.257 Roberts +P 120 grain btsp @2793 fps (.435 BC) Test Rifle: Ruger 77 MK II w/24 in barrel
500 1841 -47.33 75.62 0.67 903 21.86

6.5x 55 Mauser 140 grain spitzer @ 2671 (.496 BC) Test Rifle: Ruger 77 MkII w/ 22 in barrel
500 1849 -49.51 79.84 0.68 1063 19.92

.270 Winchester 130 grain btsp @ 3117 fps (.449 BC) Test Rifle: Ruger 77 Mk II 22 in barrel
500 2121 -36.46 59.57 0.59 1299 18.06

280 Remington 140 btsp@ 2976 (.502 BC) Test Rifle: Ruger 77 Mk II 24 in bbl.
500 2103 -38.7 63.58 0.6 1424 16.89

.30/06 Sprg. 165 btsp @ 2803 fps (.477 BC ) Test Rifle: 700 Rem 22 in bbl.
500 1924 -45.14 73 0.65 1356 19.49

.338/06 225 grain btsp @ 2678fps (.484 BC) Test Rifle: A-Square w/23 in bbl.
500 1836 -49.71 79.96 0.68 1684 20.43

[ 01-06-2003, 05:59: Message edited by: hillbillybear ]

In order to attempt a �real world� comparison, the following field type loads(magnum class rounds) that I ran through my ballistics program were taken from the 12th edition of the Speer manual (because Speer uses real instead of pressure guns). A 200 yard zero was used. Just as in the hypothetical model the differences are for the most part very miniscule.
What do You folks think ?

Good Shooting,
HBB
The Numbers Are:
1. range 2. velocity 3. trajectory 4. actual drop 5. time of flight 6.muzzle energy
7. wind drift-10mph crosswind

1. 220 Swift 52 grain bthp-match @ 3844 fps (.253 BC)(pg. 159) Test Rifle: Ruger 77-V w/26 in. bbl.
500 2151 -29.99 45.31 0.53 534 23.39

2. 240 Wby Mag. 105 grain Spitzer @ 3206 fps ( .443 BC) (page 179) Test Rifle: Wby Mk V w/ 24in. bbl
500 2178 -34.4 56.41 0.57 1106 17.67

2. 257 Wby Mag. 120 grain BTSP @ 3199 fps(.435 BC) (page 195) Test Rifle: Wby Mk V w/24 in bbl
500 2156 -34.84 56.97 0.58 1239 18.1

3. 264 Win. Mag. 140 grain spitzer @ 3130 fps (.496 BC) (page 204) Test Rifle: 700Rem w/24 in barrel
500 2217 -34.72 57.47 0.57 1528 16

4. 270Wby. Mag. 150 grain btsp @ 3249 fps ( .496 BC) ( page 211) Test Rifle: Wby Mk V w/ 26in bbl
500 2311 -31.94 53.23 0.55 1779 15.23

5. 7MM Wby. Mag. 160 grain btsp @ 3082 fps (.556 BC) (page 235) Test Rifle: Wby. Mk V w/24 in barrel.
500 2268 -36.04 57.72 0.57 1828 14.35


6. 300 Win. Mag. 180 grain btsp @3059 fps (.540 BC) (page 313) Test Rifle: Ruger 77 Mk II w/ 24 in bbl.
500 2227 -35.47 59.01 0.58 1982 14.98



7. .338 Win Mag 225 grain btsp @ 2981 fps (.484 BC) (page 350) Test Rifle: 70 Win. w/24 in bbl
500 2077 -39.1 63.98 0.61 2155 17.58

[ 01-06-2003, 05:58: Message edited by: hillbillybear ]

This phenomenom which Hillbilliebear is bringing to our attention is well known and taken advantage of in the optics industry. These simularities in trajectory is why Shepard Scopes can be used on many calibers and still have the same reticle.

In the late seventies I purchased a Bushnell Banner with bullet drop compensator for my 22-250. The elevation turret was marked with yardage and could be set to aim dead on out to 600 yd if I remember the maximum range correctly. I later replaced the Bushnell with a Redfield Accutrac which included an extra stadia wire to help with range estimation and an elevation turret calibrated in yardage. Once again set the turret for the proper range and aim dead on.

Each of these scopes covered the full range of common American cartridges with only four seperate elevation turret drums. Look up your cartridge in the instruction manual, match you bullet weight and velocity to the chart and install the proper drum (A, B, C, or D) onto the scope.

I have since then given up on the gizmos. I now prefer to sight in all of my rifles to zero at 300 yd and hold over or under at other range as the case may be.

Now I primarily shoot four rifles, 22-250 w/ 60 gr bullet @ 3600 fps, 260 Rem with 120 bal tip @ 3000 fps, 264 Win mag with 140 gr part @ 3000 fps, and 7STW with 162 gr Hornady spitzer BT @ 3200 fps. I shoot a lot of other bullets and loads in these rifles, but go back to these loads when hunting or "serious shooting"

I purchased a Chrony to be sure of the velocities. Now I have the trajectories matched closely enough, that if I get excited or confused about which load I am shooting in the field it really doesn't matter.

If I ever get the chance to install custom reticles with marks for 100, 200, 300, 400, and 500 yd on my rifles, I will be able to use the same one for any rifle I shoot.

Idaho Shooter

Hillbillybear, Now you're talking reality, and you can see why I'm shooting the .270 WBY. BD

Hello Folks,

My 2 cents on what this means to a reloader:

It is not worth pushing a load pressure to gain a few fps because the actual performance difference is negligible at hunting ranges.

A reloader can set his/her loads in many different calibres such that the point of impact is the same through them all.

No matter what the numbers say, people will always find something to argue about!

Precisely why...we all don't drive the same car, don't all wear the same clothes, and our homes have different floor plans. Individuality and personal preference! Long live it!

That's why I hunt with an (almost) 60 year old Finnish battle rifle instead of one of the off-the-shelf pieces from Remington or Winchester or Weatherby, et. al. It's different from what almost everybody else uses.

Why? Just because....

Tim

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!