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| one of us |
I am almost always a believer in incompetence over conspiracy explanations, but the fate of the 8mm cartridge at the hands of the sporting industry has me pondering conspiracies. Consider this: 1) The 8mm is an excellent cartridge for hunting deer, bear, elk, etc. 2) A large fraction of the rifles for sale at a gun show are 8mm. 3) There have been 100,000,000 '98 Mausers in 8mm surplused around the world. 4) Dissasembling a '98 Mauser, a Rem 700, Win 70, Ruger 77, Browning A-bolt, and Sav 110 while looking for quality makes the Mauser come out on top. And yet: 1) What American gun manufaturors offer a rifle in 8mm? 2) The American ammo manufacturors offer 8mm ammo in the 30-30 class. Could this all be because: 1) The American arms industry got together and conpired to sabatege 8mm popularity. 2) Americans are too incompetent to see the 8mm as a great hunting cartridge. | ||
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| one of us |
quote:As you say. C. | |||
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| one of us |
The abundance of surplus Mausers in the states would, I think, tend to dissuade manufacturers from trying to generate interest. Also, metrics of any stripe really haven't done well over here. It would seem that they all are a niche market. Not that many folks making rifles in 6.5, 7X57 either. Me, I like my Mauser fine...took a nice boar with it two years ago. Good game-getter. | |||
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| <Savage 99> |
There is a reason and a hint to the answer is 8X60. Hope this helps. | ||
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| one of us |
Sav99, "[in 1919] Allied proclamations prohibit German civilians from owning firearms chambered in military calibers. The result is the creation of various new cartridges such 8x60 Mauser that could be fitted into standard military weapons with just a touch of gunsmithing." http://www.reloadbench.com/cartspec.html How does that affect Americans? | |||
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| <Savage 99> |
To put it as nice as I can the cartridge was not on the winning side. It's a good cartridge. Lot's of cartridges are good. | ||
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| one of us |
clark: Being a handloader, I actually like the fact that the manufacturers have ignored the 8 mm Mauser. I love that there are tons of used Mauser actions on the market. Having just started playing with the 8mm Mauser, I love to handload it down to 30/30 or 32 Win Special Velocities. I am playing with one that was sportized back in the 1950s and the owner recently passed away. I hope he is in heaven knowing his hunting rifle has found a good home instead of getting junked. I find that having a Lyman peep sight on it, combined with my less than good eyesight, and a 170 grain Hornady Round Nose traveling out of the muzzle at 2000 fps or so, all make a dandy 150 yd rifle with low recoil, yet the bullet weight and shape are more than competent enough for taking deer at that 150 yds. That rifle cost me $125.00. A second one is a Turkish Mauser, great wood, smooth action, and was said it needed to be head spaced. However I picked it up for $39.00 in Montana at Axeman's in Missoula. Not sure yet if I am going to have it bored out to 8mm/06 or just have the barrel turned back and re head spaced. Will probably put one of those B Square Scope mounts that are like a Scout Scope set up on it. I like feeling a little more astute than the average guy in the woods. I like knowing that the older stuff works just as well, with a lot less fuss than the newer " Super, Ultra, Supershort Mags". I like knowning the other guys don't have a clue. I like being able to find a caliber that has been doing what guys like me wanted it to do for over a 100 yrs now. Where everything is with the 8 mms in this country is just where it should be in my book. In the hands and minds of the handloaders and the knowing, and out of the hands of the oblivious and the store ammo buying magnum crowd. The old 8 x 57 will probably still be doing what it has always done as long as they still let us hunt and still own firearms. The current MAGNUMS will be ancient history before the 8 mm Mauser will WORLD WIDE! ![[Cool]](images/icons/cool.gif){kind=icon} ![[Roll Eyes]](images/icons/rolleyes.gif){kind=icon} ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon} | |||
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| one of us |
I suspect that the reason that commercial ammunition for the 8X57 is loaded so lightly is that there are a lot of rifles out there in this caliber that could not take a load that produced pressures in the 50,000+ range. Although the 8X57 is, as you say, a caliber that is adequate for most North American hunting, Americans have had, since at least as far back as WWI, a universally available alternative that is better in every respect, namely the 30-06. Given that this is so, and given that 8X57 ammo is less available, less powerful, and available in a far more limited variety, why would anyone want to buy an 8X57? The 7X57 did catch on a bit in North America, but that is because such people as Jack O'Connor championed it because rifles in that caliber tended to be somewhat lighter than the 30-06 rifles commonly available at that time, the 7X57 is adequate for everything in North America except possibly the largest bears, and, for people sensitive to recoil, the 7X57 usually kicks less than the 30-06. I don't think the neglect of the 8X57 in the United States was a conspiracy -- I think it is that the 8X57 offers no advantages over the 30-06, and the 30-06 does offer significant advantages over the 8X57. [ 09-18-2003, 10:36: Message edited by: LE270 ] | |||
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| one of us |
I think my comments above also explain why the 8mm Remington Magnum has not done very well. I remember reading that, when it was announced by REmington at a meeting of gun writers, Elmer Keith responded by asking the question that was on the minds of most of them: "What the hell good is it?" The reason this question struck home is that the .338 Winchester Magnum already existed and had become popular. The 8mm Rem Mag was designed to occupy approximately the same niche or range of uses as what the .338 held, but it offered no significant advantages over the .338, and it had the disadvantage of being significantly more obscure -- it also sometimes needed a longer action, so some manufacturers could not offer it in their rifles -- so it did not sell in any great quantities. There's also the problem that for handloaders there is not nearly the same variety of types and weights of bullets available in 8mm as are available in 30 and 338 calibers. (That may be partly a chicken or egg issue -- which came first, unpopularity of 8mm rifles so fewer different bullets available in that caliber, or fewer bullets available in that caliber so fewer new rifles were sold in it?) [ 09-18-2003, 19:55: Message edited by: LE270 ] | |||
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| one of us |
I'm willing to bet it all hinged around the events that transpired to give birth to the 30-03. With the '06, then the 308, there was absolutely no reason for an 8mm military round. And when the '06 outperforms the 8x57, there's no reason for America to have become enamoured with the 8x57 until after the influx of Mausers, which was really like the 60's or so, right? By that time, the teams had been chosen, and .223, .257, .277, .284 and .308 made most all of the gun sales. At what point would it have been wise to introduce an 8mm round? With all the "free" Mausers falling from the sky, it would be difficult for Winchester, Remngton, or anyone else to convince you to pay about 40 times as much for their rifle. The .338 was a bold step up, and with it's acceptance buried even further any "reason" for the factories to make an 8mm round. By the time Remington does get around to the 8mm Magnum, there was an unbelieveablea rray of bullets available for the .308, and quite a bit for the .338, and I think that, along with the fact that it really performed pretty similarly to the 338 WinMag, that everyone and the Mom already owned, made it a very hard sell. | |||
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one of us |
quote:Another reason for light loads are the confusions about 8 mm. There are in fact two 8 mm calibers: .318" and .323", the latter usually known as "S". The cartridge 8mm Mauser was beginningly a .318" calibre, but when the Germans in the early years of the 20th century changed from a heavy round nose to a lighter spitzer, they had to cut deeper rifling to stabilize the bullet. Thus the 8 mm "S" was born, "S" as in "Spitzgeschoss" (spitzer). However, hunting rifles were made in .318" long after that. I my rack there is a finnish Sako 8x60 made in 1954 with .318" bore. My three years older Mannlicher 8x60 has the common .323" S bore. German produktion of .318" in hunting guns is said to have been ended about 1940. All Husqvarnas in 8x57 (8m.m.) are S bores, even though they are not stamped so. In Europe you can buy bullets and cartridges for both bore dimensions, which are harder loaded than american 8 mm ammo. American 8 mm is, at least as I have been informed, softly loaded to avoid accidents because of firing S .323" bullets in .318" rifles by mistake. If a 8 mm rifle isn�t stamped "S", it is a good idea to have a gunsmith measure the bore. I can�t see that there would be a conpiracy of gun- and ammo makers, or that the Americans would be incompetent. The reason is simple: there aren�t any practical advantages with the 8 mm compared with the .30" calibre. You can do evrything with a .30-06 that you do with a 8 mm Mauser (and vice versa too). Fritz [ 09-18-2003, 17:25: Message edited by: Fritz Kraut ] | |||
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| one of us |
The 8mm Mag is an interesting round that I've played with for years in two custom rifles. The problem with Remington and how they marketed it is two-fold: 1) The rifles came through with 24" barrels instead of 26"s. Not a big deal for a lot of rifle cartridges, but with the case capacity of the 8mm Mag, you're losing a lot of velocity minus the two inches, and 2) Remington's factory ammunition isn't that hot. When handloaded, the 8mm Mag can do around 150 fps over what you buy off the shelf. Now I'm not saying that we should all run out and buy 8mm Mags, cause the .338 Win and .340 Weatherby serve the same purpose (though the 8mm Mag does outperform the .338 Win when handloaded). I've also found it interesting that for years people necked down 8mm Mag cases to make STWs (the latter shooting 140 grain bullets at 3,400 fps). Ironically enough, the old 8mm can push 150s to 3,450 when mated with a 26" barrel. Lee Martin www.singleactions.com | |||
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quote:Not yet. Help us a bit more. Carcano | |||
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| one of us |
Germany started importing 8x57 sporting rifles back around 1889 and were advertised as Mannlicher (model 88's)(which they weren�t) .315�s but they were .318� the US ammunition companies started making ammo for them. Then the 8x57 .323� was introduced, both have the same bore (land) diameter, one with deeper grooves. The ammo companies then had to make a round for both and all hell broke loose. Remington at one time gave up and loaded a �Special� with .320� bullet. Because of all the .318� rifles in the US they have always loaded the round down because it is still shot in the wrong rifle. | |||
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| one of us |
Well I wonder why the 8mm has a bader BC than the .30 when they have the same SD. Example: .30cal 165gr Barnes X, SD .247, BC .456 8mm 180gr Barnes X, SD .246, BC .382 or .30cal 180gr Partition, SD .271, BC .471 8mm 200gr Partition, SD .274, BC .426 A bit strange numbers I think! And if we look at Barnes 175gr .338cal bullet we see that it has a better BC (.392) than the 180gr 8mm (.382). I think the 8mm would be more popular if they designed the bullets with higher BC. | |||
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| one of us |
The 7.92x57 has been heavily used in two world wars. While there are many German surplus guns from this period out there, many of them are in less than great shape, some outright dangerous to fire. I'm sure the ammo manufacturers would prefer that none of them existed. It's for safety sake that they are so lightly loaded. A good 8x57 in pristine shape is the equal of the .30-06, but there aren't many in such good condition. Just this year I saw one split at the tang and injure the shooter. While I also like the caliber, I don't like rifles that are unsafe. You have to give a lot of thought to owning one of these military rifles from the past. Best wishes. Cal - Montreal | |||
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By Lee Martin: "though the 8mm Mag does outperform the .338 Win when handloaded" Lee martin: To take full advantage of the 8mm Remington Magnum's large case, one would have to use at least a 26" barrel, while the .338 WM shoots very well with 22" to 24" barrels. But about 64 or 70 fps can be gained with a 26" barrel in the .338WM. I can't see where the 8mm Rem. Mag. would outperform the .338 WM, except when lightweight bullets are used. However, where the .338 WM provides its heaviest punch is with bullets from 225 grains to 300 grains. | |||
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| one of us |
As does the 8mm Rem Mag (and the 340 Wby, 338 Lapua, etc), Ray. It's just that the bullets are a lot harder to find. On this side of the pond, 8mm's are pretty much a red-headed stepchild, and I'm a fan. - Dan | |||
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| one of us |
quote:I think the second part of this is false because you can do things with the 30-06 that you can't do with the 8x57. In particular, as shown on another thread here, you can safely get 2800 f.p.s. with 200 grain bullets from at least some 30-06 rifles with barrels as short as 22 inches. You can also safely get 3000 to 3100 f.p.s. from a 150 gr bullet in a 30-06. I doubt that you can accomplish either of those things with an 8X57. Moreover, the range of types and weights of bullets available to the handloader is much smaller in 8mm than it is in 30 caliber. (This may come over as being snotty or unpleasant to Fritz. If so, I apologize because it isn't meant that way.) [ 09-19-2003, 18:49: Message edited by: LE270 ] | |||
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| one of us |
I would like to suggest that there is a North American conspiracy against ANY European calibres.Norma produced 2 short belted magnums ,the 308 and 358 Norma Mags. Calibres that are as American as apple pie. They were ignored by American manufactures. Some american companies make special runs of firearms in European calibres for sale in Europe but they will not offer them in North America. There are calibres that have been brought out that duplicate European calibres but offer no other improvements. Example the 280 Rem brought out years after the 7x64. Identical perormace. The 264 Win will do nothing the 6.5x68 can't do. Several other very good and useful calibres are ignored. 6.5x64 a factory 6.5/06,8x68,9.3x62 and 9.3x64. | |||
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quote:Hannes Kepplinger's 6,5x64 Brenneke is about as dead as a Dodo, or (more in synch with the topics of the board) as the zombiesque and ultra-stupid 8mm Remington Magnum (requiescat in aeternitate !). While itself a good cartridge, inspired by the much earlier US wildcat 6.5-06, it was smothered in the cradle by the almost contempory and better-advertised 6,5x65 RWS. Carcano | |||
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| one of us |
Hey Guys, I had an 8mm-06 made awhile back. The rifle shoots like a milion bucks. I purchased a Turk from Dunham's and the action and barrel seemed to be in great shape. So I took the rifle to my gunsmiths (Bill Moyer and Chad McClausin) who confirmed all that I suspected. Rather than have him rebarrel the rifle, I asked him to cut off the barrel just behind the front sight. He removed the military rear sight and installed a peep sight. He installed a barrel band sling swivel and barrel band front sight. (He also machined the step to a straight taper.) He put on a #3 Extra Fancy piece of wood from Richard's that was made in classic style. (Claro walnut - pretty enough to bring tears to your eyes.) The rifle is BEAUTIFUL! This is the second rifle I had my gunsmiths make for me and it is as nice as the first. I haven't had the time to work up any loads as yet. I think I've shot some RL15 behind 200 gr. bullets but for some reason stopped. On paper at least, the 8mm Mauser and the 8mm-06 seem to be pretty close. I wanted the little extra oomph given by the 30-06 case. The 8mm is a good bore size and if you want something that is not run of the mill.... Good hunting, Smoker | |||
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| one of us |
quote:You have a point here. In practice, both cartridges are fully each other's equal - the .30-06 may perform a bit better with lighter bullets (there is a reason after all why it's not a .30-03 anymore ;-)), and the 8x57 IS may perform better with heavier bullets. On the other hand, just to offer another US viewpoint diverging from LE270's, there's a guy named Steve Comus who might be known to one or the other on this board *chuckle*, and who writes: "It is squarely in the .30-06 class, which is saying a lot. But actually in many hunting situations, it is the '06's superior(...)." (Nosler Reloading Guide # 5, 2002, p.385) Best regards, Carcano | |||
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quote:Not completely. The .300 H&H and the .375 H&H have done well here, and they are of European origin -- unless you don't consider England to be European. They also had the great virtue of not being metrics. I don't know why the .308 and .358 Norma Mags didn't do well here. I understand that before the advent of the .300 Winchester Mag there was a spate of conversions of 30-06s to .308 Norma, but the appearance of the 300 Win Mag quickly wiped out the Norma number. The .358 Norma is a most useful one, but for some reason it never caught on. I suspect that a big reason is that American ammunition manufacturers didn't make ammo and brass for them because there were too few to make it profitable. When Norma ammo was available, it tended to be greatly overpriced, compared to American-made ammo for comparable calibers. It is true that most Americans -- at least those of any vintage before about 1980 -- absolutely loathe the metric system, so any cartridge with a metric designation has a tough time of it here. We think in terms of inches, feet, yards, ounces, pounds, quarts, gallons, and miles -- those are fully meaningful designations to us; we have a visualization and conceptualization of them built into our consciousness, and they appear in many common phrases (e.g. "an inch is as good as a mile," "a quart shy of a lube job," "missed him by a country mile"). But centimeters, meters, grams, kilograms, liters, and kilometers make us gag and leave a terrible taste in our mouths and need to be converted into something we can understand before we want to deal with them at all. The exception is the 7mm Rem. Mag. That one came along at a time when there was a good need for it because it actually filled a niche that nothing else filled, namely something more powerful than a .270 or 30-06, but that kicked less than the .300 magnums.(Weatherby had had the 7mm Weatherby Mag. for quite a while before, but that one never really caught on.) There was an effort by our stupid elites some time ago to make us convert to the metric system -- they tried to put kilometer signs on our highways and km/hour designations on the speedometers of our automobiles, and even sometimes gram and kilogram signs in our supermarkets. It was, thankfully, a more-or-less total failure, and you rarely see those signs here today. I know what it means to say that a car gets 40 miles to the gallon (that's quite good gas mileage). If you did it in terms of kilometers per liter, it would be meaningless to me until I went to the trouble of converting it. I know what it means to say that a bullet weighs 150 grains, that it is propelled by 52 grains of powder, and that it has a muzzle velocity of 3000 feet per second. If you express the weights in grams, and the velocity in meters per second, I'll turn away, knowing that I'm uninterested unless it is expressed in proper terminology and measurements! [ 09-20-2003, 07:26: Message edited by: LE270 ] | |||
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"proper terminology and measurements"- LOL, now that's funny. - Dan | |||
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quote:Yeah. Calibers should be properly measured in lines, and sights be graduated in arshins or �sterreichische Schritte. It's more... more... more human[ this way. ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} Carcano | |||
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One of Us |
quote:What mystical powder pray tell is it that you are accomplishing these majical velocities with? Id like to get some for my 06, but lets remember that what is "safe" in one mans gun will potentially scatter another. The truth is that the slightly larger bore of the 8mm gives it a slight efficency edge over the 06 with heavy for caliber bullets which helps make up for the few grains of powder that the 8mm lacks compared to an 06 case. This renders the two ballisticaly very similar. Punch that 06 out to a 338 and the 8X57 is lost in its wake. The 8mm does have its fan base in the US, myself included. The stepchild status it recieved is due to; A) What Savage 99 was trying to say. It was the enemys chambering and therefore not looked upon in a favorable light by allied countries for several years. The jap rounds are still looked at in much the same way. b) the problem of the "S" bore and the resulting weak 8mm factory ammo, and the headspace problems with mismatched bolts in millsurp rifles. c) the 30-06. With huge amounts of surplus 06's and its unparalleled success there was no need to find the virtues of the 8mm. Nevertheless many have anyway. I can see what the inital post was aiming at, but if that were the case, if the 8mm were what the people wanted, the big manufacturers would simply play along and chamber their rifles for 8mm's. No conspiracy, just neglect. I have sometimes wondered if the mega overbore crowd that loves testosterone thesedays will possibly rediscover the 8mm RM. Its a wicked chambering and compares easily to the "ultras" that have become all the rage. That would be a good thing for all 8mm fans and could possibly spawn some better bullets. | |||
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| one of us |
Intriguing thread... I think the reason the 8mm is less popular is simple economics. Suppose your are the VP of New Product Development for a firearm company. Should you invest your advertising and development dollars on a rifle that has $75 surplus competition, or one that has $450 competition? Same argument for ammo. Should you try to compete with $.12 milsurp ammo? Especially if you worry that an "adult" load might bust some milsurp rifle with a hidden defect? In both cases the profits are elsewhere. Or put yourself in the position of building yourself a custom rifle. You can specify any barrel you like, that fits on your custom action. They are all the same price. Would you honestly choose the 8mm? Some might, with good reason, but sales history suggests that few do. Personally, I like it that way. I enjoy shooting something a little different, especially if it works very well, and cost me a third to a half what a comparable new item would. My 6.5x55 Swede is my favorite rifle, at least a couple of days per week. If I decide to go out and try filling my deer tag, that's probably the one I'll take. Just to pour a little kerosene on the discussion, I think the 8mm is just a trifle short on case capacity. You have to get to about 225 grains in an 8mm before you get a really good BC. The backroom on the 8mm isn't quite big enough to be really efficient with that heavy of a bullet. The '06 has a just slightly better balance between backroom and BC, but not much. | |||
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When I look at the SAAMI drawing of the 8mm Mauser it is clearly JS, but when I look at the SAAMI pressure, it is clearly J. Once SAAMI did that, how can American ammo manufacturors make JS ammo? Are we waiting for someone to pay to register the JS pressure, or +P? The lack of JS hunting ammo may be like the '89 Bush Ban that helps American gun manufacturors. | |||
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quote:Yes, there are some differences, but practically I for my part do not bother about a difference of a 100 pfs. But I concede that there are much more bullets available for the .30-06. Best regards, Fritz P.S. You don�t have to apologize for having a different opinion. If you had, this discussion would be rather boring! ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} [ 09-22-2003, 16:29: Message edited by: Fritz Kraut ] | |||
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| <eldeguello> |
quote: Actually, the Gewehr 88 is more of a Mannlicher than anything else! It was designed/adopted by a German Army Commission, and is NOT a Mauser, despite being labelled as one by most people. However, I believe the 7,8X57mm I CARTRIDGE is a Mauser design.... A lot of these M88's had .322" bores originally, also, despite the fact that the ammo was loaded with .318" bullets. Many early European smokeless powder cartridges were loaded with bullets that were smaller in diameter than the GROOVE diameter of their bores. ![[Confused]](images/icons/confused.gif){kind=icon} | ||
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quote:On another thread here a shooter claimed to be getting 2800+ f.p.s. with 200 gr. Speer bullets in a 30-06. I responded to him saying I was very skeptical about this, thinking that this is highly unlikely. But he challenged me to try it and I did, and found that the load he was using indeed gives that velocity, at least in the rifle I used. I got it from 60 gr. of RL 22 or 63 gr. of IMR 7828 in Winchester brass and using a CCI 200 primer. The rifle was a Browning Safari, the one on a Mauser action, with a 22 inch barrel. On the 8mm, I understand that when the 8X57 rifles began appearing in America, there was for a time a lot of converting of them to 8mm/06. That conversion did give a bit more powder capacity, so with such rifles a bit higher velocities could be achieved with heavier bullets. Moreover, while 8X57 brass was hard to come by then, there was no shortage of '06 brass and conversion of that to 8mm/06 was very easy. (8x57 brass is now easy to get as it is made by Remington and other large American manufacturers.) But the interest in 8mm/06 seems to have died out, as I've never actually seen such a rifle nor have I seen a notice of one for sale recently. [ 09-22-2003, 18:21: Message edited by: LE270 ] | |||
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| one of us |
If I plug 60 gr. of Re22, 200 gr., 22", 30-06 into Quickload, I get 2639 fps, 55826 psi, 106.9% case fill. If I plug 200 gr., 22", 8x57JS [CIP], 55826 psi into Quickload, I get 61.8 gr. Re22, 2689 fps, 114.2% case fill. The notion that the 30-06 will beat the 8mm with 150 gr. bullets, but the 8mm wins with 200 gr. is common knowledge with most guys standing around at a gunshow. But the differences are so small! Shoot a group at 200 yards with a 2689 fps load, and then on the same target shoot a reduced load at 2639 fps, and the groups will not distinguish themselves vertically. [ 09-22-2003, 19:35: Message edited by: Clark ] | |||
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�Actually, the Gewehr 88 is more of a Mannlicher than anything else! It was designed/adopted by a German Army Commission, and is NOT a Mauser, despite being labelled as one by most people. However, I believe the 7,8X57mm I CARTRIDGE is a Mauser design.... A lot of these M88's had .322" bores originally, also, despite the fact that the ammo was loaded with .318" bullets. Many early European smokeless powder cartridges were loaded with bullets that were smaller in diameter than the GROOVE diameter of their bores.� I did not say it was a Mauser. I have examined several of the commercial imported sporting rifles made by Shilling & Haenel and all where .318�. I was not referring to imported military rifles. | |||
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quote:What you get when you plug things into Quickload, and what you get when you actually load them into a rifle and fire them, measuring the results with a chronograph, are frequently very different. The first is theory, the second is fact. Facts frequently refute theories, but theories do not refute facts. [ 09-22-2003, 20:15: Message edited by: LE270 ] | |||
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I think the 7mm and the 9mm are doing well here in the states. Not sure what all the whining is about. Then theres the 8mm Mauser...., everyone knows americans hate that cartridge. Trigger | |||
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quote:Excellent comment! There's the model, and then there's reality. If the model does not match reality, then we have to adjust the model. Reality pretty much has a mind of its own. Comment on 2800 fps with 200 grains: I like RL22 with 180 grainers, simply because it is a very low pressure load... something in the high 40KPSI range. So the next question is, if the manufacturer can get 2750 fps at about 46 KPSI, why would he stop there? The gun is good for a lot more pressure. Why not use the additional pressure margin, to get really spectacular speeds? I suspect the answer is that above that pressure, the load becomes far less predictable. Powder burning speed is a function of pressure. Peak pressure is a function of burning speed. You may or may not get yourself into stability problems if you push past what the manufacturer thinks is a stable load. | |||
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quote:Not correct. Ferdinand Ritter von Mannlicher, plagiator eminens, stole a couple of ideas froimthe German M 1888 Commission rifle, just as from the Italians (the 6,5x53R Mannlicher is his cheap copy of the Italian rimmed trial round he was given to work with - but the Italians were smarter than Ferdinand and secretly had already been planning for the - at that time - ultra-modern rimless variant after the German 8x57 and the Swiss 7,5x53,5). The M 1888 rifle was fathered mostly by Armand Mieg and Louis Schlegelmilch. quote:Rather not :-). The cartridge was a commission design, and a superb one. According to G�tz, the military always used 7,9 mm bores from the start - only the civilian J-bore hunting rifles has their lands tightened in the quest for accuracy. Carcano | |||
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| One of Us |
by Fritz Kraut: [qb] You can do evrything with a .30-06 that you do with a 8 mm Mauser (and vice versa too). I have to go along with Fritz here. The 8X57 has always been one of my favorite all around calibers. As a gunsmith, I've talked many a customer into building/barreling rifles in it and they ALL thanked me. It's a very accurate, versatile & forgiving caliber that is very efficient in a properly barreled rifle. In fact, if I could only have one rifle, it would be in that cal.(probably an early 77 ruger or FN) No conspiracy here. Only drawback is limited bullet availability, but there's still plenty to do anything you'll need. | |||
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