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So, I bought a CZ Sporter in a .243 and had it re barreled to be a .260 Rem. Bullberry Barrel Works in Hurricane, Utah did the work for me. And now I'm trying to work up a load. I'm shooting both Nosler and Hornady 120 grain bullets and have had the same problems with both. I'm using H4350 and Hodgdon suggests a beginning load of 43.5 grains, which should yield 2,814 fps. And for a max load they suggest 46.5 which should give you 2,960 fps. Barnes, which makes a similar bullet to the Hornady GMX, suggests that I start out with 38.1 grains for 2,628 fps and a max load of 42.3 which should give me 2,853 fps. So, I started my loads at 38.1 grains and worked up to 46.5 grains in 0.2 grain increments and went out to shoot them. And this is what I got. At 38.1 grains I got 2,708 fps. At 42.3 grains I got 2,906 fps. At 43.5 (Hodgdon's prescribed minimum) I got 2,988 fps. All this time the pressure signs are going up. The primers are beginning to crater and the bolt is beginning to stick. I never made it up to 46.5 because I blew a primer and figured that I had learned what I needed to about H4350 and 120 grain bullets. I don't know if this has anything to do with the high speed but the Troy at Bullberry's cut the throat just a little short to make up for the short magazine that comes with the CZ. I would think that that might have something to do with the pressure but not the speed. Should I go to a slower powder? Have any of you seen this before? | ||
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First, what Hornady bullet and what Nosler bullet? The Barnes info is irrelevant if your not using Barnes bullet solid copper bullets are very different and Hornady's GMX is different than other bullets. My suggestion would be to find the data for the exact bullet your using and use that data working up in .4 increments. If you get decent velocity and decent accuracy I would not worry if it below Hodgdon's minimum unless Hodgdon's load was for your exact bullet. If it is for your exact bullet, then go buy two boxes of different factory ammo and see if you get pressure signs. If you do, then send it back to bulberry with the spent cases of the factory ammo. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Thanks. | |||
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That could tell you a lot. Chamber a round and then extract it. Look at the bullet. I would suspect that the bullet will have marks on it where it is jammed into the lands. Try seating the bullets deeper in the case to see if the pressure signs go away. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Which is why I don't use short actions for anything bigger than a 223. Especially the 6.5s that like to use those long bullets, a short action is a step in the wrong direction for maximum flexibility. | |||
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and yes the short throat can drive speeds up as well as it is driving Average over all pressure curve values up. Load it back down to the speed you want or have your maker open the throat a bit? "The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights." ~George Washington - 1789 | |||
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Just again proves that loading books are just a suggestion and guide. That every rifle is onto it self. | |||
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I measure the lands to be 2.2125" from the base of the case. I don't see any marks from lands on factory ammo. How does distance between the ogive and the lands affect velocity? | |||
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so how was the accuracy? you got the velocity, and you got a maximum load. | |||
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 And the choir sang" AMEN AMEN "  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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What is the COAL to the lands with what specific bullet? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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It's all about pressure. Increased velocities = increased pressure, no way around it. I wouldn't worry so much about the powder charge as I would be watching the chrono for whatever max velocity you are seeking. Obviously you're wise to watch for pressure signs, but the high velocities would be a dead giveaway as well. I have a McWhorter 7-08 that acts the same way.....41g Varget and a 140AB gives me 2850fps. I stopped right there. | |||
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I wasn't shooting so much for accuracy. I put all 28 rounds through the same target. I was looking for velocities and signs of pressure. The high velocities and pressures started with the first round (38.1 grains of H4350 shot at 2,708 fps.) Should I seat them another 10 thousands of an inch deeper and try again? Should I go on to H4831SC? | |||
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adjusting your bullet jump may help fine tune a good load but it ain't a fixer. I think I'd start out by having the chamber re-cut to standard dims. You'd still have to be limited by the magazine box but you could at least have some general data that you could use. If your bullet is not jamming into the lands, (did you blacken the bullet before you tried it?) how long your leade is is not gonna affect your velocity. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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Not being critical, but are you sure you saw pressure signs with velocities only 2708? | |||
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The primer was flat. It wasn't squashed and the dimple wasn't cratered, but it was not rounded around the edges. | |||
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I didn't blacken my bullet, I used a stony point gauge with a modified case and a rod down from the muzzle to make sure I didn't jam the bullet into the lands. | |||
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It would help if you would tell us the actual bullet...you have never provided that info. Which nosler? Which hornady? need more than just the weight and What COAL are you seating them too... Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Juat for info, the Hornady and Barnes bullets are not "similar". The Barnes bullet is copper, Hornady uses gilding metal ie bullet jacket material. | |||
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I admire the fine-increment progression you use, quarterbore. I know this would require filing flats on your rims, but do you measure the solid head of your cases as well as watching primers and noting bolt-opening resistance? IIRC, H4350 is in fact AR2209. I looked at its loads in my 5th Ed ADI handloaders guide (2010) and the velocities were the same as Hodgdon's (except the minimum 43.5 grains gave 1 fps more  - whether that indicates testing in different rifles, I doubt.)AR2209 was definitely the highest achieving of six ADI powders they showed for 120-grain bullets and its 58,200 psi with the maximum 46.5 grains was marginally lower than all but two other powders. (AR2217 had much lower pressures than the other five powders but its 51-grain maximum's 49,300 psi only produced 2810 fps.) ADI's failure to indicate whose bullets, primers and cases were used to gain their results is less reassuring, I feel, than those tables where all components are mentioned, even if you don't follow them exactly. BTW, I don't own a 260 Rem, but the ADI tables are on the same page as the 6.5x54 MS, which I do load for. While some of their other-calibre loads are ho-hum, those for the 6.5x54 seem quite adventurous. The max 42.5 grains of AR2209 with the 120gr projectile claims to produce 2700fps from an 18" barrel. So far I have only loaded 140-grain projectiles but have used Nick Harvey's loads, which put the maximum 10% below ADI's max, reflecting the caution of your Barnes figures. | |||
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I believe that I did provide the exact bullet at the beginning. It is a Hornady 120 grain GMX. | |||
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You might try seating a little deeper. The .260 is a longer cartridge than the Creedmoor and it can be used in a short action but bullets need to be seated deeper. I think the GMX design is a long sleek bullet and may need more seating depth. I would try some 120 A-Max to see if they act the same. | |||
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OK, thanks. | |||
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QB, Not to be nit picky but in your fourth sentence you only state 120s and refer to Hornady's and Noslers. Two sentences later you talk about Hornady GMXs and Barnes with no reference to bullet weight. You know what they say about assumptions. The data that you are using out of the Hodgdon site is for a Speer 120 a completely different bullet with a likely a very different length. The Barnes data is probably closer but not a substitute. Call Hornady tech support and ask them for the 120 GMX data for H4350 they will provide it. BTW, if you look at the Barnes data just for grins, you are achieving over max velocities with a max load which was probably in a 24 inch test barrel and yours is probably 22. I have a couple,three rifles that I get to within 4% (that's around mid point of the range) of Barnes max data with Barnes bullets and I see pressure signs. So the net is, you may very well not have any problem at all. There is a reason that the protocol is start at a percenatge below minimum and work up. Call Hornady and get the actual data for the 120 GMX and for reference the overall length. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Thanks, Mike. I have a 20.5" barrel. | |||
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It turns out that Hornady does not have a load for their 120 grain GMX loaded with H4350. | |||
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Which is why you must watch your chrono, and remember the pressure/velocity thing. You won't be overpressured and under-velocitied, for lack of a better term. They work together. | |||
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As JG said, watch the Chrono and watch for pressure. But just back of the envelope, I would not expect much more than 2760 with that 20.5 barrel without creating pressure. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Thanks for your input. That's pretty much what I've been doing. And, Mike, nobody needs to know what you've learned from AR since 2001. It takes up way too much of the page. | |||
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Forgive my ignorance, quarterbore, but considering your interest in getting best-possible velocities, what made you order such a short barrel? It may be that with a barrel that short a slightly faster powder may be more efficient, even if not improving velocities. | |||
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That's the way CZ made the rifle in the first place. The balance is about perfect. I figured that it would lend itself to a faster powder but in the case of this bullet it appears that H4350 is a tad too fast. I want the most accurate load, which I assume will include a full case and the proper velocity. | |||
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I'm loading for hunting. | |||
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I don't know about the GMX, but Nosler recommends seating their E-Tip shorter than their Ballistic Tip for the same 120 grain weight. Their OAL is listed as 2.770" for the E-Tip. Again, I know they are different bullets, but it might help. Also, I'm sorry, but why would you insult someone like Mike who is trying to help you? Just saying. Larry "Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading" -- Thomas Jefferson | |||
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Thanks for your input. It is difficult to read responses when you have to assume that 3/4 of the response is not intended for you. I'm sorry for the insult, Mike. It's just hard to read with all of that information that doesn't apply to my question. | |||
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QB, The most accurate load may or may not be a full case and may or may not be at top velocity. I am going to assume you did not see pressure signs at 42.3 (if you did go to the load where you saw no pressure). From the no pressure point load 3 rounds at .4 below, three rounds at .8 below, 3 rounds at 1.2 below, three rounds at 1.6 below, and three rounds at 2.0 below. Fire each load on a different target dot but don't fire all of load 1 first then all of load 2. Cycle thru the loads so you are spreading out the effect of a dirty barrel. Hopefully You should find 2 loads that have a similar group size and a similar POI. Split the difference between those two loads. Nothing you plan on shooting with that 6.5 swede is going to no the difference of 150 fps. See lesson 2. That is why I keep them there.  . No offense taken by the way, I have been subject to a lot worse.BTW, H4350 is 1 of only two powders I use for everything. So it's good to find a load using it. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Thanks. I'm going to try some H4831SC. I've got loads for that from the Hornady book. And if that doesn't work out I'll go back to H4350. | |||
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I try to limit the number of powders in my cupboard for obvious reasons, so can understand your reluctance to buy more when H4350 is such a good compromise at the slower end. I don't know if you can get Australian-branded powders over there, however, (or what other Hodgdon equivalents may be) but that ADI manual shows four faster AR powders applicable to the 260 Rem with 120-grain bullets - and only two slower. | |||
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This is what works for me: I take the lowest load and the highest load and I load one round for every .2 grain increment. With the last bunch I ended up with 35 rounds. Then I shoot them all and chronograph them. I usually shoot every five rounds a at a given target but the grouping isn't as important as what the chronograph tells me. Then I come home and write down all of the velocities next to their respective loads on excel. Then I make a scatter plot and see where there are places where two or three loads are close together. We call them "nodes." I take the middle load of each node and load up 5 rounds. I shoot them and see which node produces the tightest group. It saves me on ammo and nerves. | |||
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How can I post a picture? | |||
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http://forums.accuratereloadin...0106691/m/2521072332 | |||
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