The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading PROFESSIONAL Grade Electronic Scale vs. Beam Balance?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| PROFESSIONAL Grade Electronic Scale vs. Beam Balance? | Login/Join |
| one of us |
My Hornady beam balance scale is a pretty foolproof mechanism; but its repeatability in weighing powder is not perfect. The weight given by the scale depends on exactly how the powder is distributed in the pan. I settle the powder in the pan each time; but despite this, very small differences, often unnoticeable to my eye, in how that powder lies in the bottom of the pan can produce differences in the reading of at least 0.1 grain, and in some cases closer to 0.2 grains. I can't figure out the physical explanation for how that can happen; but it does. I don't think there's anything wrong with my scale; I think it must just be inherent in the way balance beam scales are designed. Here's my question: Has anyone tested the readings from a good balance beam scale against a really precise professional electronic scale (a better scale than the $200 ones handloaders use) to see what the extreme variation from the balance beam scale is when it LOOKS as if the powder is sitting just right in the pan? | ||
|
One of Us |
I once was fortunate enough to have use of a digital electronic scale that read to .02 grains. Wish I could remember the mfr.....an extremely precise scale. I still will use a balance beam over any electronic scale a going. Darn things need to be re-zeroed twenty times an hour!!!!! If your balance beam is well made (and I had a bummer from Dillon once) it's the way to go IMO. I've used the Hornady (not made by Ohaus) and like it. The Ohaus scales normally are good too. I wouldn't pay a nickel for a truck load of Lee's safety scales. But after that, the best I ever owned was a cheap plastic one from Bonanza. I gave it as a gift to a guy in the sandhills.....I wish I had it back!!!!! /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
|
One of Us |
Got a Lyman digital scale/dispenser...I luv it Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
|
| one of us |
I got rid of my Hornady (and a Lyman 500 Pro). The Hornady was all over the place, (up to 3/10ths.grain) and I believe it was the massive chunk of brass they used as a ballance wt. It seemed to sit in it's slot at an angle and the slightest change of position would make a fair difference. This showed up even with nothing in the pan while trying to zero it. Each try would give a slightly different reading at the pointer, which was thick and blunt anyway. Ditto with any weighted reading with check weights in the pan. Mind you I don't think it would have made much difference in reloading over an average. The Lyman 500 Pro just used to sometimes seem to wander off on its own for some reason. I think anything with "Pro" attached these days means "cheap". Eventually got an RCBS 505, and its been good, but I keep a beady eye on it. I'd now trust it more than the RCBS pardner electric I tried. John L. | |||
|
| One of Us |
If you look at the fine print, most all powder scales, beam or digital, are ony accurate to +/- 1/10 of a grain. That is a total variation of 2/10ths grains. Without being a smartass, with what are you weighing to determine that your scale is actually off by the amount the maker says is within it's tolerance range? To be able to say that accurately one would have to be able to weigh to 2/100ths grains. Enough nitpicking. I doubt very seriously that the accuracy of your loads depends on 2/10ths grains or less weight of charge. This is certainly not an amount which would create unsafe loads. I too have what seems a weird scale, but every tine I check it with a scale weight set, it is dead on. If you want a digital scale that is fine, and I'll bet you quit worrying about the variation that is present in the system, as you won't see it. Be sure your digital scale is set away from the air currents of your air conditioning/heating system. Boycott Natchez Shooters Supplies, Inc | |||
|
One of Us |
 I've ruined the transducers in two electronic scales.Heavy handed? Maybe, but I have two old Redding beam balances that have served me just fine for many ,many years.I kinda put the electronic balances in a similar catagorey with Chrony.Does tits on a boar hog have any meaning?  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Bartsche, I wore out one Redding beam balance and I am now on my second one. Actually preferred the first. Had a jar of oil to dampen -- a little messy but more effective. New Redding, I believe, uses a magnet to dampen. Barstooler | |||
|
| one of us |
. | |||
|
| one of us |
That would be cool. lawndart  | |||
|
| one of us |
Well now it seems it depends on how you look at it. + or - to me doesn't add up to a 2/10th's error to me. I see it as a POSSIBLE error of only 1 tenth EITHER side of correct ?? And just where is this possible error lurking ?? To me I take it that once the beam is zeroed ANY setting on the scale will be no more than 1/10th. under OR over. The final test for me is when zeroed with check weights to (say) 25.5 grains, the damn thing will continue to weigh that to zero on the pointer. My 505 does and will register the difference of ONE GRANUAL of (say) Varget. Sure the knife edge must be sharp and clean. And as for nit picking, my new improved cleaner internet immage forbids me from further comment. John L>  | |||
|
one of us |
As a guy who worked in front of a precision lab scale in a trace metals analysis lab (measuring to .0001 gram, NIST tracable calibrations, accuracy!) for a good while paying my way through college, I might have an answer for you. Look closely at these 2 points of your balance scale, Mine is an RCBS, but they all work about the same: 1) The pivot where the beams rest on the scale body 2) The hole where the pan hangs through the beam Most trouble is with #1. The pivot must be a perfect razor sharp edge to be frictionless. Any rolling/flattening/roughness on this edge, or any grooving on the groove it rides in will cause erratic readings. This is caused by either corrosion on the knife edge, or heavy handling flattening the edge. With #2, the ring will actually stick a bit towards one side or another. It must swing freely or the load is positioned slightly farther toward or away from the pivot. Simple lever physics says that will change your reading. When you stir your powder, you probably either change the pivot (#2) or your scale just isn't very repeatable due to #1. Try this: Get a reading, then tap the pan lightly enough to set the beam swaying, but not enough to make it bottom out. Let it settle and read again. Different? I thought so. Clean and lube with very light oil #1 and #2. Make sure there is no rust at #1, polish with emory cloth on a flat surface if necessary. Try again. The name of the game is freedom. The beam and everyting attached to it must swing freely, so anything that affects this is bad! Good luck! Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. | |||
|
One of Us |
I have fired some very accurate National Match ammo, and have pulled and weighed both powder charges and bullets from some of this ammo. I have never seen any factory ammo that consistently had no more than 2/10 of a grain variation in powder weight, although the bullets from some lots of ammo were very uniform. IO once had a cheapie Pacific powder scale that had a set of weights with it, and you had to set it for the desired weight of powder using the weights. My present scale is one of the old-time Lyman-Ohaus gadgets that came self-contained in a base and cover arrangement. The only way I've ever been able to check it for accuracy was by using Sierra bullets, but it was always within 1/10 of a grain of what Sierra said the bullet was supposed to weigh. This seems to speak well of both the bullets and the scale........ "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
|
| one of us |
Thanks for your comments, guys. The suggestions about accurizing the beam scales are particularly helpful. W What got me to wondering about this was that various people who have bought electronic scales have tested the charges weighed on them by weighing the same charge on their balance beam scales, and have concluded from that that the electronic scales are accurate within plus or minus 1/10 grain (as advertised by most of the manufacturers). However, if the balance beam scale itself is not repeatable within plus or minus 1/10 grain for the reasons mentioned above, how can they really know how accurate the electronic scales are? It could well be that the electronic scales are right on, and that it is the balance beam scale that is producing the variation in weight. If that were true, I might start using an electronic scale rather than my current balance beam | |||
|
| One of Us |
The knife edge and bearing must be clean. If you lube you run the danger of picking up particulate which will turn into a gum.If you do lube clean well prior to use. Never put the beam scale away with the knife edge in the bearing. NEVER  .Store scale covered (incased if you can) and in a room with reasonable temperature control. My #1 has lasted 48 years now and I only had to hone it once.That was when a friend ? kept it outside in his garage in Grand Juntion for a year.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
|
| one of us |
It's all up to you, but both systems are accurate enough when they are working proberly and SET properly. The only way to be sure is with check weights even if it is only a "bullet". The electric ones are very delicate and fussy and are supplied with check weights which should be used quite often as the readings tend to wander off, in my experence, in about 20 minutes. The big amusement I had with one was watching it flick backwards and forwards on the tenth reading. It just wouldn't decide.  John L. | |||
|
| one of us |
JAL: I have found (been told)two sources of trouble with electronic scales are.. 1. "dirty" power. Voltage fluctuations at the outlet the scale is pugged into. I am not talking about black outs or damaging spikes. Rather enough varition to cause the electronics to skip a beat. 2.Static electricity! Whow can this one play havoc with you. For number one, if you have a good electric/voltage meter, check the voltage drift at the outlet the scale is plugged into. If it drifts more than a few volts+/- find a good electrician to help solve the problem. For number two, I wipe my scale with an anti static dryer sheet. I keep one in the scale box. Hope this helps. muck | |||
|
| one of us |
Actually, the worst offender causing variations in the reading of sensitive open top electronic balances is air motion. If the wind blows ... your balance can see it. That's why very expensive professional electronic balances are used in an enclosed enviroment. Power variations and static are likely to destroy the balance. If you're really finicky an isolation transformer or a small computer UPS will protect the power. An anti-static matte under the balance or under your feet when you use it will dramatically diminish that risk. I've used my Lyman 1200 for about 15 years without needing either. (BTW: My degree is in analytical chemistry.) Mike -------------- DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ... Knifemaker, http://www.mstarling.com | |||
|
| one of us |
mstarling: Yes air movement affects electronic balances. It also plays havoc with balance beam scales. Air movement was already discussed above. I was adding two other sources of troublenot yet discussed. The voltage fluctuations I speak of are small and not notably damaging. Over time they may be, but not like a voltage "spike". I like cheap dryer anti static sheets. muck | |||
|
| one of us |
Electronic balances are way more sensitive to air motion than are simple beam balances. The ones sold for reloading have a lot of damping built into them which does reduce their sensitivity. Certainly the old triple beam analytical balance is almost equally sensitive to air motion ... but they too are built inside boxes that limit air disturbances. Mike -------------- DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ... Knifemaker, http://www.mstarling.com | |||
|
| one of us |
All good and correct advice, and static elect. can be a real shocker. You all should see me sparking with the vacuum cleaner. However the RCBS (Pardner) was running on a 9 Volt battery, and my pathetic sense of humour meant the scale was obviously at half way between tenths. Still, you certainly have to watch the little blighters. John L> | |||
|
| new member |
Buy one of the many electronic scales on the market today and I bet within an hour you will be pulling your hair out and asking yourself why you bought that dern thang in the first place. On the other hand you could spring for a labratory grade digital scale for upwards of five hundred bucks and spend all day calibraring it over and over and over. For my money you just can't beat a good old beamer. Good luck. "five shots one hole" DWM Jr | |||
|
one of us |
I also have the RCBS Chargmaster system, love it. Simple, accurate and needs no attention after starting up. Start up takes 30 seconds and every charge is weighed! | |||
|
| one of us |
I have heard many good reports about the new RCBS Chargemaster system. I might go for it if there was some way of telling how repeatable the weighing of the charges is, and how much variation it actually allows; but in order to find out, I think that one would need to check the charges it measures against some scale that is known to be more accurate than + or - 1/10 grain. | |||
|
| one of us |
Uh, DWM Jr.-- I bought one of the many electronic scales on the market, and I did indeed pull my hair out-- at how stupid I had been at not buying one years ago. Massive, whopping time saver. Only negative is that it requires AC-- no 9V battery backup. And they are pricey. Fooling around with a balance is as antiquated a concept as using brushes to remove copper fouling. | |||
|
| one of us |
I'm to lazy to think, so as having used both, where is the time saved ?? Last electric I had I think I was supposed to wait 20 minutes for it to warm up. So in the mean time I pop a check wt on my beam, couple of seconds there. Then either system I pop out a charge from the powder measure and pop it on the beam hanger or electric plate. The beam settles in a couple of seconds and it takes me that long to move the trickler over, either system, then same length of time to pick the pan up ? Crickey I can even weigh cases on an old Redding balance without any dampening device in a couple of seconds, IE high,low, or swings about the centre line. And being a luddite, I think I can see what is going on with a beam, where as who knows what the electric thingy is up too. John L. | |||
|
| One of Us |
What is wrong with these Lee scales? | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading PROFESSIONAL Grade Electronic Scale vs. Beam Balance?
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia