Most of the time, I'm anal about cleaning my rifle bores after 30 rounds at the most. But today I went ot the range just to plink awhile while my friend shot his .308 for the first time. I picked up some ammo for him at Bass Pro a couple of days ago while I was there and he brought a box of another brand that he got for free with the purchase of the rifle.

I loaded up a bunch of 185 VLD bullets a couple of months ago before my BC bear hunt. I had 100 loaded up over Varget since they did so well. So, I thought I'd just plink at 100, 200 yards for awhile just for trigger time.

The bbl was clean when I started and the first 5 shots were 3/4" which is a bit bigger than they were before, but the bbl was dirty then.

I shot 45 bullets today in 5 shot groups. By the time I shot the last 15, they were almost as good as anyone could expect from a hunting rifle. I can usually punch nice 3 shot groups but on occassion, #4 and/or #5 will open up the original group. Not today. I was actually quite surprised and I think I'll keep shooting until I see the groups open up.

I may just have to change my thinking on cleaning frequency if this keeps up. Also makes me wonder how many times I had a load that was better than I thought but I kept the bbl too clean. I'll let the 30.06 with the PacNor bbl be my guinea pig, even though every bbl is different. I'll go back out Tuesday and pop at least 30 more and see what happens.

Barrel was allowed 15 minutes b/w strings.

Doc, I've got a .270 that has so many rounds through it without loss of accuracy, I'm scared to tell it. Some here would flog me. Having said that, shooting without cleaning this particular rifle is somewhat of a test, I look at the barrel for good a while every time after I shoot it with my Hawkeye. I will clarify, and say I push a dry patch through it ocassionally just to knock out any loose stuff, but no real cleaning--at least by my definition.

I have never cleaned a rifle at the range. Some of the better groups a rifle produces is near the end of the shoot.

40 years ago and before ,cleaning a rifle meant one Hoppes patch, a clean patch and an oil patch after a hunt. The hunt may have lasted a week.Was brain washed that was all that was needed. Maybe it was.

Never had an accuracy problem. roger

Well, using these Bergers it was a little frustrating if I recall, only at first, but when I started seating them at the lands or just into, it was magic. I'm using Lapua brass on this too.

Next time I go out I'm shooting it only at 200 and will see how it does.

I don't clean my hornet barrel - no need to - I seat the bullets with a lubed paper patch. Well, one day I thought the bore looked a little dull, so I pushed a bronze brush dipped in tapping fluid throught it. It was hard to push through at first but eventually went through freely. What came out was a dark 'stuff' with shiny copper particles in it. I thought I would see a vast improvement in accuracy and less pressure signs on the cases/primers. But, no difference! Not in accuracy nor pressure signs! Since then the barrel has stayed clean and shiny. Accuracy is not fantastic but is a lot better when there's no wind.

My 303 on the other hand, looks dirty and copper fouled but shiny from the breach end. All I do there is put a Hoppes dipped bronze brush through after use then repeat before use followed by two or three dry patches. That barrel was new 25 years ago and still looks the same. (It's had no more than 800 rounds through it).

Many long range match shooters use the "sighter shots" to do a couple things and one is to check the wind drift, elevation already established, and secondly to treat those sighter shots as fouling shots for the bore. Never liked to take that first "record" shot with a super clean barrel.

Some years ago I wanted to investigate what parallax set at 100 and 200 meters could do to your strings. I made 5shot groups to see what happened. looking straight through the scope and a bit from the side. In about four days I shot some 500 rounds without cleaning my Sako Forrester in .270 Win.
To my astonishment the groups in the last session were as tite as in the beginning, about 1,15 MOA.

If the quality of the bbl rises, cleaning is less necessary, it seems.
Nice day,
Jan

I keep my bores impeccably clean , While in storage that is !.

I generally use factory or " Error Loads " to foul my bores , before shooting groups of 3 X 5 or fifteen rounds . That's how I determine if a load is really a load or a false pretense .

The number of fouler rounds really IMO depends on the rifle and caliber .

Depending on where and what I'm hunting I'll carry up to #3 separate bullet weight loads . I use certain cases for each so I know which is which . I also know the POI of each because I practice with them ALL the time .

When I hunt , I check zero and fire a few rounds at my range , I also do this if at all possible when I get to where I'm hunting , before the hunt of course .

Point is if it's a week or less between those two events I don't clean the bore .

Now to give an example contrary to what I've just stated above .

I have an old war beater M1 Garand and a A3o3 .

They both had HARD miles on them before they came into my possession .

I inspected the bores after cleaning them with Bore paste solvent bronze brushes for over two hours !. I still was unable to see any rifling for the last two inches of the bore . The A3O3 was worse I never saw rifling period !.

I soaked them in hot water and ammonia scrubbed neutralized solvent washed used 4 brushes . Black bore no better !.

Screw it ! I purchased an Outer foul out 3 rod . On the 5 Th. fluid change on the third day . Holly crap RIFLING APPEARED in BOTH RIFLES !. The bores were pitted but I now could see crisp rifling .
This was a few years back now.
I have to fire approximately 5-8 rounds to foul them , then they will shoot under an inch all day long most times 5/8" in the M1 all with hand loads of course .

I highly recommend that Outers Foulout 3 cleaning system . Do I use it on my cherry bores NO NO NO !. Only on bores which are dark and pitted ( Mostly Older Military stuff )

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

quote:

Originally posted by dsiteman:
Never liked to take that first "record" shot with a super clean barrel.

G'day dsiteman. You made me smile,but I'm not sure why. So, your first two sighters, if they're both centers, do you keep them??
And just where does the next few go??

Anyway, the more I read AR the more I learn, except on gun cleaning. Here I get more confused.

In the (my) old days, we cleaned our rifles only to stop them rusting. So what's changed, are we all shooting SS ?

These characters that don't clean because it shoots fractionally tighter groups after 30,300,3000 whatever must have the colliewobbles on deciding when to clean and how much, (if that can be practically done.)

Long range shooters and our pro shooters tend to clean SS (I think), to keep to a known standard over the length of a shoot. IE why worry about a slight variation with sighters if your in the lead, 8 shots to go, and the accuracy decides to go off due to fouling???

I think this "won't shoot a damn for 5,10 20 whatever shots means something is wrong with the barrel,bedding, or such. If we paid big money for a target barrel and it wouldn't group from shot 1, I'm sure it would go back whence it came.

OK the knockout punch.
The bench-resters get the best accuracy, and the last I saw they're always scrubbing away at something.

Then there's the Hollywood version of cleaning.
A cowboy sitting around the fire, slowly rubbing the 'ol 92 on the outside of the barrel with a dry white rag. Well a few inches of it anyway.

So when someone here askes about cleaning their barrel, I feel like asking things like what's it made of, how does it shoot clean as a whistle, how much do you shoot it at one session, are you in a humid area, is it chrome lined, are you shooting old mil corrosive ammo,
do you need any slight improvement in accuracy it may have when dirty, can you clean it without ruining the crown, etc,etc.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
...I think this "won't shoot a damn for 5,10 20 whatever shots means something is wrong with the barrel,bedding, or such. ...

Hey JAL, I completely agree.

I clean mine at the Range, when Hunting and occasionally when they have not even been shot since the last time they were cleaned. Shooting nice tight groups for BenchRest Matches is quite different from Hunting Groups, or at least it is for me.

BenchRest normally requires a lot of shots over a day or a few days. Hunting for me normally requires only " one " shot before the firearm gets cleaned and lightly relubed. I do not shoot BenchRest, so I don't know nor do I care how well they shoot with a whole lot of shots through them.

The most important shot of all to me is the first one that comes from a pristine clean and lightly lubed bore. That is the way my firearm is prepared to Hunt and normally speaking lots of shots are not needed to make a Kill if the first shot is placed properly and the Cartridge is adequate for the task at hand. Over the years I've only had to fire a second shot "maybe" 7-8 times.

Good Hunting and " clean " 1-shot Kills.

I am not a bench rest shooter but I've shoot quite a few factory matches. When I first started, every BR shooter would shoot 2 foulers, 5 score shots and then clean the hell out of his rifle and start over. Now I see more and more of the BR shooters going one and even two relays between cleanings.
I have shot as high a 50 rounds at the matches w/o a fall off of accuracy. I would still fire a couple of "foulers" to begin the relay however. The cold barrel would shoot to a slightly different point. Not enough to affect a hunter but enough to change a 10 to a 9 or enlarge a group.
For a hunter, a light scrubbing with a brush and some Hoppe's #9, a few patches, and an oily patch ought to keep a fellow going for a long time.
For hunting, I clean my rifle spotless, then fire it to make sure it's still on target (those grimlins are everywhere) and then I don't tough the bore until the season is over unless I fall in the creek.

I have a stainless Ruger 7 Mag that won't shoot consistent sub moa groups until it gets between 15 and 20 rounds fired through it.

Well, here was a new one on me. When we were shooting last Sunday, my cohort was shooting his 308 for the very first time. We used a box of Winchester ammo, in 150 grain to get it on paper at 100 and 200 yards. We also had a box of Hornady 150 SST to shoot. He stated that the seller cleaned the rifle thoroughly before my friend bought it.

Well, He put 20 rounds through it and just to show him how I clean, we cleaned his rifle there at the range using the KG 1-3 method. Without a borescope, I cannot confirm just how clean the throat was but from patch obersvation and ease of push, I'd say we got it clean.

His rifle was 2" high at 100 yards and about 1/4" left using the SST bullets. After cleaning, he shot at 200 yards. His bullets were hitting the right target but he was aiming at the left target. His bullets were 2" low but 10" left. The scope was not bumped and everything was tight.

After about 8 more shots, the bullet began drifting back to where pre-clean POI was. Back to 100 yards, he was still about 2" high but 3" left.

Not sure what happened there, so he finished up the rest of that box too. On the last 3 we re-adjusted his scope and left the range with it dead on 2" high. I told him we need to repeat this trial to see what happens.

No one will argue Cold barrels an warm barrels do funny things !.

Hunters Shoot with Cold barrels , Varminters shoot with warm to hot barrels , BR shooters shoot with cold to cool barrels ( I Think ? ) because their heavy barrels and timed shots .

When paper punching I try and space shots about 1 - 1.5 minutes apart , hopefully for a warm barrel average . Not laying the barrel in 90 + degrees direct sun also helps .

I've yet to figure why some ammo strings shots and others doesn't . Same day same conditions beats me !!.

Shoot Straight Know Your Target . ...

Doc, run a very tight patch through his clean bore and see if there are any loose spots. AKA bulges from oil in bore or moisture at one time. After a few rounds the fouling fills the voids and all returns to "normal."

They are all like women!! DIFFERENT!! You've got to play them to know them! Some shoot different bullets to the same POI at 100 yards(those are usually the good barrels) and then there are those that won't shoot anything without the "obligatory" fouling shots........and for some it is 2 and for others it is 15! Bottom line is, we're all pretty much searching for the HOLY GRAIL and it ain't gonna happen!! Have fun! Learn your rifles peculiarities and punch varmints, paper or deer(deers is varmints too you know!) but HAVE FUN! GHD

clean ain't got no time for no stinkin cleanin gotta shoot

I have seen a lot of guns that shoot better without cleaning and when you clean them it takes quite a bit of shooting to make them accurate again..

My old 30-06 shoots under an inch all day long unless I clean it then it shoots 2.5 inches until I put a 100 or so rounds through it..I have not cleaned it now for about 20 years..I'm scared to....

Most rifles shoot better clean well and then 3 or 4 fouling shots.

One reason a factory rifle might shoot better dirty is that the wide spots in the bore get filled in a bit.

Most of the BR shooters I know shoot sighters to gage conditions and may shoot enough to get the barrel fairly hot, especially if the wind has been wild and there are only 2 minutes left and they have 4 record shots to go. As the wise man said-- if the brass ain't flyin' - you're dyin'. Heat shields are not used on BR gun barrels just for looks.

If I had a barrel that could not shoot a cold record shot without a fouler, I'd sell it. I had one or two of those back in the brown shoe days before all these nice new air gaged, cryo'd, stainless, hand lapped, magically rifled, super precise BR barrels were available. Gotta love technology.