I have read several threads discussing neck sizing v/s full length sizing, in an attempt to decide which might be the best for me. I am still undecided as no two people seem to be able to agree on anything!
At the risk of touching off another lengthy debate, in which nothing is settled and I am further confused, please allow me to ask a few questions of my own.
First, I read about neck sizing being for bolt action rifles only. What about break action single shot rifles? Namely the Thompson Center Pro Hunter?
Secondly, I have read that neck sizing can be done with a full length die that is not adjusted to fully contact the shell holder in the ram. True or false? As an addendum to this, will I be able to de-prime the cases by simply adjusting out the zip spindle/de-capping pin?
I realize this stuff is probably "old news" to many loaders and many will think I'm foolish for bringing it up. However, I would rather ask a dumb question, rather than risk damaging a rifle or breaking equipment. To that end, please add any information you might think useful or important to this thread.
Many thanks to those contributing useful information here.

As another new member here, I also will be interested in this thread. I do not know the answers, but I can tell you that I did do the neck sizing only using the method you mention way back about 25 years ago. I did not have issues with it, but I also have no way to know if what I was doing was correct or appropriate.

I plan to start the reloading again after being out of the game for so long and will be doing so on a bolt action rifle where I will be looking for accuracy over function. I will be looking in here for any experts opinions on this.

Generally. You neck size when you are going to use the loads in only one gun--_that being the one you shot them in. This makes them fit the chamber of that gun better, but they may not fit other guns of the same chambering.
Yes, you can next size w/ full lenght dies as you have described.
I do not own a TC. But do neck size for my 3 Ruger 1s.

If you full length the cases will get longer faster so be ready to trim.

I am glad that you brought that up Mr. Face! It seems that I am getting an awful lot of expansion (lengthwise) from my cases.
As an example, the Hornady Handbook lists 1.902 as the trim length and 1.912 as the max case length for the 22-250. I hope I am quoting these dimensions correctly, as I don't have the book right in front of me. At any rate, I know that if I trim to 1.902, load, fire and full length re size, the case has grow to well over the suggested max length. I have been trimming my cases every time I load them, while I read about others getting three or even more firings between trimmings.
What is up with that? Is this something I'm doing wrong or is it something to be expected? What do you think?

I am by no means an expert. However using neck sizing for your TC pro hunter should not cause a problem. You full lenght for semi auto to prevent problems during or with feeding. You can neck size by doing what you said however, you will get more uniform brass if you use a neck sizing die. This is because the differance during setups. As you said you are looking for accuracy the more concistent you are the better.
I hope this helps with your question and welcome to AR this place abounds with knowledge I just wished I knew half what some of these people do.

There are a variety of ways to get to a loaded round. It is just time, effort and money and whether it makes any difference to your gun and to you.

This is one of those Ford and Cevy things for bolt guns as far as loading and reloading goes.

The first questoin is how tight is your chamber? For a tight chamber , like a custom or a long range custom etc, many use a body die and a bushing neck. Then again some just full size or partial full size. A lot depends on that . If you have a larger chamber then the neck die

Look for and search on partial full length sizing, partial full length vs neck sizing, or something like that, and you will be able to read yourself to sleep for a few nights. There are plenty of proponents on both sides.

Ultimately it will probably pay to check out both in your rifles. If you have the neck dies in your set give them a go. Ultimately you will have to full length size though, and bump the shoulder back too. I dont run as many rounds on brass as some though. But then again I dont anneal and I dont ever trim but once after the original trim or two total trims. Just my way. That is part of the hand loading and reloading is developing " your way."

The PFl does not work the brass as much is really the thought. Again IF your chamber is really tight, then you can probably FL size becuase you are not moving much brass anyway like maybe 0.002. So see what you can chamber. On a bolt gun you can "feel" resistance. For the TC I have to let others say.

I dont mind the extra steps for hunting or target style guns and go about the process different, but I use a decap die in a separate initial step and not the FL or neck as a decap. Can you do it with the neck, sure. You will just have to see it it works for you.

One thing to consider is that when doing a partial full length resize (really just a neck sizing), you will be resizing the neck only partially along the length of the neck. This is no problem in a single shot since you are just looking to size the neck enough to hold reasonable tension on the bullet. Do be mindful of this when shooting to insure you dont have any cases with the bullet slipped back in the neck. They would have to be pretty loose to do that with normal handling though.
I also agree that this is best practice if you have only one gun in that particular chambering.

Neck sizing with a F/L die. That is what they now call Partial F/L resizing. And as far as I'm concerned, it's the best way to go. Especially with a factory rifle or even a semi-custom.
I set my dies up as follows: I set the sizing die up to full length resize. So there is NO gap between the die and the shell holder when I cam over my operating handle with a cartridge in place.
Then I make a washer about the thickness of a dime or nickle that will fit around the threaded portion of the die. I put that between the top of the press and the die. And tighten it down. You could use a couple of dimes or nickles but the washer helps keep the die from torquing to one side if things aren't lined up.
When you resize a case with this set up, you are partial full length resizing. When you remove the case, you can see that the neck is only resized near the shoulder and the shoulder is not moved. After a couple of reloadings, there will develope a small bulge or doughnut around the neck at the shoulder. IMO, this does not harm and in fact helps align the cartridge in the chamber.
After several firings, the cartridge will become hard to bring into battery because the brass has increasingly matched the dims of the chamber. When that happens, or when you're making up hunting ammo, you remove the washer, full length resize the brass, and start over.

As an aside, I've fired several box cars full of 22-250 ammo and I don't think I have ever had one that went from "trim to" length to beyond "max length". It seems though, especially with new brass, when it's trimmed to size, on the first firing, it will grow more than say on the second or third firing. Then it seems to settle down a bit.

There are several forms of neck sizing and the results may also vary according to case geometry.

1. Collet die neck sizing
Use the Lee collet die. You may need polish the mandrel down to get enough tension on the bullet. No lube required
2. Bushing die neck sizing
Requires you to measure a loaded round and pick a neck bushing about .002 smaller in diameter to insure adequate tension. No lube required
3. Neck sizing in a conventional neck sizing die. You will need to lube the expander ball

4. Neck sizing in a FL sizing die
A straight walled case with a short neck will be sizined on the body some and will push the shoulder forward. It can cause stiff chambering.
A long necked case with a tapered body will avoid this. Some lube required.

5. Partial full length sizing.
Will produce an exact fit for headspace but requires lube much like FL sizing.

Many thanks for the response thus far, and I look forward to reading the posts here in the future. These responses have cleared up a good deal of my confusion and I appreciate the help. I will take all the help I can get!
I tried some "experimentation" last night, and I will have to admit to being a little dissapointed in the results. Things didn't work out the way I had hoped, but I have not lost hope. Not by any means! But the following is a brief synopsis. Maybe someone can put me back on the right path.
I set up my HornadyLock N Load press as we discussed, leaving the full length die about a dime's thickness short of touching the shell holder placed in the ram. I had to do some adjusting on the de capping rod to get it to punch out the spent primers, but that was no big deal. I "smoked up" some cases using the ol' candle trick in order to be sure of where the full length die was actually working. Then I went at it.
I notice that well before the die ever tightens the case mouth, it is already rubbing the "smoke" from the case body walls. Of course with a little more adjusting, I was able to get the necks to tighten up some, but at that point, I had already resized about 1/2 or 3/4 of the case wall's length. Just for curiosity's sake, I placed a 50grain Hornady V-Max in the case mouth and chambered it in the Pro Hunter, allowing the rifling to seat the bullet to "jam length". Everything seemed to work out as it should.
Is the above described process what people are calling "partial full length resizing"? I'm not sure it is even possible to do neck sizing only, with the Hornady New Dimension dies. I am basing that statement on the observation of the die rubbing the "smoke" off the case walls before even touching the necks.
Also, how tight should case necks be? I have read that as long as your bullets don't fall out or push in deeper, that's tight enough. But shouldn't the case neck be a little tighter than that? In order to get good pressure in the case if nothing else?

At any rate, I would appreciate if someone might shed some light on these questions. Also, I have not read any response that might indicate why it is that my cases grow so much in length. I think that one poster don't believe me when I report that the cases grow from "trim" length to over "maximum" length, over the cycle of one firing and resizing. Nevertheless, they do. Am I doing something wrong here? What gives?

Jay, I can tell my cases grow when I full length but Im not sure where. It would have to be in the case body. I just full length when they get hard to chamber. Im no enginner so I cant tell ya why. I just do what works for me. As far as neck tension goes youll have to play with it. I run a little crimp on my autos because I think theyll feed better a little crimp on my 6ppc because it will group better. Theres nothing cut in stone. You got to play with it.

quote:

Originally posted by jaybald1:
First, I read about neck sizing being for bolt action rifles only. What about break action single shot rifles? Namely the Thompson Center Pro Hunter?

Jay, I don't know if any of the posters touched on this issue yet, so let me just offer my $.02...

Neck sized cases are a lot closer to chamber dimensions than FL sized cases, so they tend to chamber a bit (lot) stiffer - or soon will do after a few firings.

A bolt action can deal with quite a bit of stiff chambering as you have the leverage from turning the bolt do the final (and hardest) chambering for you.

A break-top gun does not have this leverage, and to chamber you have to rely on snapping the break-top action closed. Not only does this make it harder to chamber tight fitting cases, there may also be a long term effect on your action - having been snapped hard to close a few thousand times...

Yes, you can fire NS brass in a break-top action, but a bolt action is a better platform for that particular job.

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by jaybald1:
I set up my HornadyLock N Load press as we discussed, leaving the full length die about a dime's thickness short of touching the shell holder placed in the ram. I had to do some adjusting on the de capping rod to get it to punch out the spent primers, but that was no big deal. I "smoked up" some cases using the ol' candle trick in order to be sure of where the full length die was actually working. Then I went at it.
I notice that well before the die ever tightens the case mouth, it is already rubbing the "smoke" from the case body walls. Of course with a little more adjusting, I was able to get the necks to tighten up some, but at that point, I had already resized about 1/2 or 3/4 of the case wall's length. Just for curiosity's sake, I placed a 50grain Hornady V-Max in the case mouth and chambered it in the Pro Hunter, allowing the rifling to seat the bullet to "jam length". Everything seemed to work out as it should.
Is the above described process what people are calling "partial full length resizing"?

No, the above is not "partial full length sizing". To do that you would have to push back the shoulder of the fired case minimally (.001-.002" for those of us who like to quantify such effects) to ensure smooth chambering coupled with minimal sizing and best possible fit between chamber and fired brass for long brass life - and, possibly, for best accuracy.

If you use a FL die, as you will have observed, you will start sizing the case walls long before you push back the shoulder. The brass movement from the case body will ensure the case shoulder is pushed FORWARD, and brass sized such will be even harder to chamber than brass neck sized with a proper NS die (not touching the case walls).

However, all is not lost, because if you continue to turn your FL sizing die into the press until you *just* touch the shoulder (getting a .001-.002" shoulder push back, if you can be bothered to measure this), you will have achieved PFL sizing.

So, a FL sizing die is not a substitute for a NS die - if NS is what you want to achieve. But a FL sizing die can be adjusted to give you smooth chambering as well as minimal sizing and long case life. This is how a lot of us choose to size, e.g. having tired of hard chambering NS brass.

With regards to case lengthening of brass in a FL sizing operation. How much a case lengthens largely depends on the difference in dimensions between your rifle's chamber (~ dimensions of fired brass) and the internal dimensions of your die (~ dimensions of sized brass). The larger the difference, the more your brass will lengthen with every sizing. You can get rid of this effect by neck sizing (using a proper NS die), but you will buy this at the cost of hard chambering brass.

Each rifle seems to be a law upon itself. Some rifles like tight fitting (e.g NS) brass, others don't. You'll have to experiment to see what works for your rifle.

- mike

Jaybald1,
I too am re-learning the dynamics of dies and methods, taking a 20 year sabatical from reloading and am confused by the various books, forums and personal recipes that various shooters have, different options that various dies offer individually.

I have broken this down into 3 groups of dies. FL (full length)to be used as 100% FL or partial FL, neck only (with and without expander ball), neck only with external bushings (no internal expander ball, and neck size only with external bushings (no internal expander ball)and shoulder headspace sizing (combined Forster bump dies).

To add to these variables, there is internal neck reaming and external neck turning and the variable of chamber bore dimensioning (tight custom verses standard), and how hot you reload your shells. Also, are you finger loading into a single shot benchrest rifle or an semi-auto which dictates desired neck tension. These are all the things that need to be considered and I have probably missed a few as I am no expert.

These are a few things I have gathered that are absolute:
Your chamber dimensioning (which may have an effect on your decision to use neck size or FL size and depth of neck turning)
Neck turning (outside turning seems to be preferred over internal reaming)and should be done for accuracy
Dies must have the ability to align bullet/cartridge seating perfectly (no "run-out)
The obvious for cartridge consistency - case length, flash holes, cleaning, mouth chamfering, lubing, weight or volume, sizing operations
As little neck tension as practical (.001-.0002 preferred for accuracy but not ruggedness in handling/mag. fed chambering)
Bullet/land contact clearance (bullet jump)
Method of cartridge sizing depends on other variables that must suit your particular needs.

My dilemna is deciding on purchasing RCBS Gold FL sizing dies using a partial FL sizing operation vs the Forster "shoulder headspace bump size and neck size die". or are there other options?
Do you full neck neck size or leave a bit near the shoulder to create the doughnut to aide the cartridge/chamber concentricity/alignment or depend on the shoulder fit to provide that alignment?
I like the bump die concept, but don't know.
I shoot a .22-250 in a Rem 40X. Helpwould be appreciated.

quote:

I know that if I trim to 1.902, load, fire and full length re size, the case has grow to well over the suggested max length. I have been trimming my cases every time I load them,

You are excesively resizing your cases.

I don't claim to be an expert reloader but I've been doing it since '65, for .22-250 since '70 and it's no different from any other bottle neck cartridge. FL sizing done right will not produce much more case lengthening than neck sizing.

What most people call FL sizing is to simply jam the cases as far into the die as possible without any consideration of what they're doing to the shoulders and what many people call 'partial FL sizing' is simply FL sizing as it should be done. FL size so your shoulders fit snugly and all will be as good as it can be.

Anyone wanting to Neck Size would do well to get a neck die, attempts to do it with an FL backed off are usually futile. But most rifles shoot as well or better with FL sizing - done right - and, on average, the necks will last no longer with one technique than the other.

quote:

My dilemna is deciding on purchasing RCBS Gold FL sizing dies using a partial FL sizing operation vs the Forster "shoulder headspace bump size and neck size die". or are there other options?

IMHO, the ideal way to neck size is with a Lee Collet neck sizer, it produces the straightest necks possible and leaves the proper neck inside diameter for less bullet run-out.

Use a body die in conjunction with a Lee neck die for the best results from "FL" sizing.

IMHO, the RCBS 'competitive' die sets produce little or no better ammo than their regular sets, which are no better than any other brand, but they are very expensive (guess that makes the "you get what you pay for" crowd happy).

I've used and measured the output of several dozens of die sets and find two average levels of performance; Forster and Redding are tied for first place, all of the others are tied for second place.

Fact is, ON AVERAGE, second place dies usually do a very good job and first place dies can't make a vast difference on target even if they make any difference at all. I say "on average" because I don't want to listen to loud cries of "My brand X dies did much better than the brand Y dies I had". Okay, okay, but that misses the point; individual dies vary and they will vary as much between individuals of the same brand as they do between brands so advertising aside, on average there is no effective difference between brands that anyone can prove.

Sizing options/methods:

http://forums.accuratereloadin...=393108035#393108035

i know a guy who swears by tc singles and he neck sizes

I neck size in everything but my break open TC's. Search out the web site for Mike Bellum TC's. He has some very good information on FL versus NS for break open guns. To maintain proper headspace he recomends FL only for the TC's. Following his instructions, on loading for the TC's I shruck my groups in half in my 22-250 and 22/6mm Ackley improved used on an Encore frame. Here is a link to his site
http://www.bellmtcs.com/store/index.php?cid=153

When using the FL sizing die to do neck / partial FL sizing I learnta few frustrating lessons.

Firsltly the idea of sizing part of the neck can be very imprecise - it is possible to push the body in to a small extend & this will push the shoulder forward while also sizing part of the neck. Such a situation results in difficulty in chamnerign the cartridge in the chamber of the rifle it was shot from in the first place. it took me a while to understand what was going on.

I solved this problem by first FL sizing a few cases and loading them & then backing off the die one turn at a time and stopping just where the ammo chambers and the bolt closes easily. Now I know that the neck has been sized withouth the shoulder being pushed forward too much.

I also tried backing the sizing die a bit more and found that the ammo made from this setting was offering more resistance when closing the bolt - in other words the shoulder had been moved forward.

A question I have is - given the above situation, is not true that all FL dies will first push the shoulder forward before setting abck again?

Jaybald,
I skimmed through all of the post rather quickly and didn't thoroughly read through all of them so forgive me if I missed something.
I did not see where you stated what cartridges you were reloading.

You are going to have to figure out what works best in each of your rifles that you are reloading for based on how hot or close to max you are reloading the cases versus how tight the chamber is to specs. The hotter load the more likely you will have to partial-length resize or full-length resize more often than not. The more you work the brass, the worse it is for the brass. For my situation I use the Lee collet dies and Redding neck sizing dies the most here lately but on my hotter loaded rifles I will end up going "full-length" when needed and "partial resize" for most of those.
With both of my WSM rifles I have to full-length resize almost every time. I have yet to find any thinning of the brass although I have had some necks split from fatigue.

Also depending on what calibers/cartridges you shoot you can save yourself some money by using larger dies as neck sizing dies on smaller cases of the same caliber. I have used 300 WSM and 270 WSM F-L dies to neck size 30-06 and 270Win. cases.
I recently used a F-L 7mm-08 die to neck size some of my 7X57 cases. The F-L die just has to be shorter and larger in the case body than the case you trying to neck size. You start with the die backed out and work down until you are just above the shoulder or you have 1/2 of the bullet diameter or somewhere in between. (I always leave the lock nut loose on my sizing dies and tighten once the die is set)
Just be sure to check your cases in the rifle chamber for fit before reloading them. It works fine.

As someone above stated, if you use the F-L die and partially resize the neck but don't bump the shoulder back just a bit, the action will be harder to close if your chamber is on the outer end of SAAMI specs. Not so much if it is on the inside of the spectrum. Just depends on your rifle.

Good luck reloading.

quote:

I am still undecided as no two people seem to be able to agree on anything!

That's because there is no definate (or even largely definate) answer about neck sizing. Even when neck sizing makes a difference the difference isn't great, many other factors come into play and a LOT of people simply have an idea fixation they can't let go of. How well it works, either with an FL or neck die, depends on your own chamber, sizing die and work methods, your own cases and how well you develop your loads - meaning it's LOT more complex than simply shoulving a case into a die and believing you're doing 'quality' work.

So, do what you want; it probably won't change your results very much but you will likely develop your own firmly fixed opinon.

All roads lead to Rome. Your choice of paths is self determined but the right to defend unto the death your choice of roads is genetic.

You will have to decide what works for you. If your sized 'smoked' cases load and extract with reliability and provide reasonable accuracy in your rifle and you feel happy about it, then use that method.

I F/L resize my cases for my Ruger No.1 single shot. I just find it easier to load and extract F/L cases in that rifle.

If you want to neck resize only, buy a designated neck size die. Be aware however that the neck tension may vary from the F/L die if a different brand. I now buy three die sets. I can neck resize 2 -3 times before I have to F/L resize the same cases. This is for hunting where reliability is paramount. On the range you can get away with a 'crush fit' on a bolt rifle.

Edit: The whole goal is to get rounds safely and accurately down range. No need to over-think it while gathering knowledge.