I can't find many 308 Winchester loads for 220 grain round nose / Partition bullets. I understand the twist rate on many 308's is slow for a longer 220 grain bullet. Can anyone direct me to any data or tell me this is a bad idea? (both useful!)

Hodgdon 26th has quite a bit of data for 220s (and 250s also). Do you have a particular powder in mind? What is the twist rate of your rifle? If it's a 10" they'll maybe work okay, 12", maybe not so okay.

It may only be one man's opinion ( mine ) but the 220 gr.30 caliber RN bullet is just a poor match for the average .308 rifle, taking mag. length and shallow throating into the picture. Just out of curiosity on what do you intend to use that bullet ? roger

guess i have to ask why too? I dont even bother with 220s in my 300 mags.

Quite a number of years ago, I loaded 220 gr. bullets for use in 308s (an M1A and a Remington 742). My guess would be that the twists were 1:10. They were quite acceptable over Winchester 760/H414.

As for reasons to use them; not many I guess unless you need more penetration. Energy delivered and bullet momentum, needed for penetration, are not the same. My reasons for using them at that time were for curiosity and potential bear hunting.

quote:

tell me this is a bad idea?

There is a valid reason the commercial makers don't load those bullets for the .308, velocity is too low for the normal twist to stabalze them.

The .308 Win can push a 200 grainer to about 2500 FPS......Frankly, I can see little use for a heavier bullet that might get you 2200 or so.....I think the 2400-2500 range will provide better results.

I also suspect the velocity loss will result is possible stabilization difficulties.

There's also a valid reason to use them, depending on your hunting style. If your gun will shoot them accurately the 200-220 grain round nose bullets at 2100-2200 fps are incredibly effective on big game at normal hunting ranges.

That was the combination that gave the 30-40 Krag it's reputation as a slayer. The 06 eclipsed it almost immediately with it's longer range but there's no flies on a 308 loaded similarly. The 30-40 case only hold two grains more of water and operates at far lower pressure than the 308 so you should be able to use 30-40 data to start.

Just remember guys that stabilization is more dependent on length than on weight and a round nosed bullet is shorter than a spitzer bullet of the same weight. I had no problem stabilizing the 220 grain bullets at 100 yards with barrel twists that couldn't have been faster than 1:10.

I'll look for the Hodgon manual. Its not in the online data.

I'd like something to deal with bears at short range and I have a stash of 220 grain bullets.

Thanks to all.

Hodgdon doesn't have a manual, per se, but has an annual reloading magazine that's cheap and has LOTS of data. If for some reason you can't find what you want, send me a PM and I'll get something to you.

Thanks. I will pick one up!

Here are some max listed loads for 220 grains in the .308 Winchester from Hodgdon
1 H-4350......43.0 gr......2207 fps
2. H-414.......43.0 gr......2225 fps
3. H-380.......42.0 gr......2191 fps
4. BL-C(2).....37.5 gr......2127 fps
5. H-335.......35.5 gr......2116 fps
6. H-4895......35.5 gr......2130 fps

One additional reason you might want to reconsider is because the 220gr 30cal Bullets are typically Designed to be very tough - Non-Fragile. That means by the time it reaches the Game, and has continued to slow down from the 2000-2100fps(typical in a 308Win), there is less of a chance that it will Expand. So basically you are using a Non-Expanding(aka Solid) at those initial velocities. You might Kill it, but you also might get to practice your Tracking Skills over a long distance.

150gr-165gr Bullets "Designed for Hunting"(not Paper Bullets) work properly at 308Win velocities as far out as most folks want to try them. When you check the Retained Velocity, Retained Energy and Trajectory of them in comparison to a 180gr, 190gr, 200gr or 220gr Bullet, you will easily notice which Bullets provide the Optimum Balance between those criteria. You can locate all that info in the back of a good Load Manual.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
Just remember guys that stabilization is more dependent on length than on weight and a round nosed bullet is shorter than a spitzer bullet of the same weight. I had no problem stabilizing the 220 grain bullets at 100 yards with barrel twists that couldn't have been faster than 1:10.

Most 308 Winchester are being fitted with a 1-in-12" twist, and it is too slow.
Some 308's come with a 1-in-11" twist, which is a bit better.
Very seldom do they come with a 10" twist, like the 30-06.

The 308 case is a bit short for a long 220 grain bullet and so rob powder space.
Velocity drop off and at long rage your bullets won't open up properly, or not at all.

The bullet length measure of Greenhill was just an approximation.
The Gyro formula (SF values) actually use the weight and a number of other factors.

Warrior

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
Just remember guys that stabilization is more dependent on length than on weight and a round nosed bullet is shorter than a spitzer bullet of the same weight. I had no problem stabilizing the 220 grain bullets at 100 yards with barrel twists that couldn't have been faster than 1:10.

Most 308 Winchester are being fitted with a 1-in-12" twist, and it is too slow.
Some 308's come with a 1-in-11" twist, which is a bit better.
Very seldom do they come with a 10" twist, like the 30-06.

The 308 case is a bit short for a long 220 grain bullet and so rob powder space.
Velocity drop off and at long rage your bullets won't open up properly, or not at all.

The bullet length measure of Greenhill was just an approximation.
The Gyro formula (SF values) actually use the weight and a number of other factors.

Warrior

Remington has used a 10" twist for most of their rifles chambered in .308 for quite some time, and still does.

quote:

Most 308 Winchester are being fitted with a 1-in-12" twist, and it is too slow.
Some 308's come with a 1-in-11" twist, which is a bit better.
Very seldom do they come with a 10" twist, like the 30-06.

If I was a betting man, I'd bet heavily against that bolded statement!

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Most 308 Winchester are being fitted with a 1-in-12" twist, and it is too slow.
Some 308's come with a 1-in-11" twist, which is a bit better.
Very seldom do they come with a 10" twist, like the 30-06.

If I was a betting man, I'd bet heavily against that bolded statement!

Maybe they're all 12" twist South of the Zambezi.

220 Grain Loads in 308 Win[/quote]

I recommend a 9.3x57 rifle shooting 285 grainers.

Out of my three 308s two are 1:10 twist and one is a 1:11. One of those is what stabilized 220 gr. bullets for me in the past. As for the 220 gr. bullets not expanding; I very much doubt it and in any case, expansion is overrated as witnessed by the use of solids on the toughest dangerous game.

It's also "well known" that .224 caliber barrels won't stabilized a 70 gr. bullet at a 1:12 twist. I happen to have three .224 caliber barrels that stabilized 70 gr. bullets very well. The reason is that they're semi-spitzers and are thus shorter than the usual 70 gr. bullets. A round nosed bullet would be even shorter than a semi-spitzer.

A 220gr round nose loaded to 2200 fps in a .308 pretty much duplicates the old 220gr 30-40 Krag load, which I understand, was nothing to sneeze at.

The CoreLokt does well at the lower velocities
The Partition may or may not.

I have loaded 200's ,220's and 250's in a 308 lever--

All have satisfactory results on big hogs at ranges of 150 and closer.

With respect to the Krag--
it was a real killer--
I grew up with them-- no complaints.

The CIP twist Specification for the 308 Win is 12". I would guess that all European countries that signed up with CIP must work on their standards. Not sure what the SAAMI standard is.

I suppose one can do a quick tour and and see what twist rate is being used by Savage, Remington and Winchester today. Obviously custom builders can put on what they like or one re-barrels.

SA compannies like Musgrave, Vektor, and Truvelo, Sahara, Sabi Arms, Thor Engineering, and a few others work on CIP specs. Former 2 have now closed down.

If a 10" twist, stability is not an issue.

Warrior

I'm worried more about penetration than expansion. There are better choices for a big woods big bullet gun, but I'm trying to make use of what I have. I'm talking 50yds or less, so we're not talking much muzzle velocity loss.

I've got some old Sierra RN bullets. They are short for weight at 1.305 inches long, so theoretically they should stabilize in a 1-12" twist barrel at 2200 fps.

Thanks to all for the replies.

quote:

Originally posted by quickdraw:
I'm worried more about penetration than expansion. ...

Then a 165gr Partition is what you need. IMR-4064 or WW-748 for accuracy, power and a much flatter Trajectory.

Nothing wrong with trying the Sierras though, especially if you have a good Tracking Dog close by.

Norma 200gr oryx is a fairly popular bullet for shortrange moose/bear hunting. About 90% retention weight.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by quickdraw:
I'm worried more about penetration than expansion. ...

Then a 165gr Partition is what you need. IMR-4064 or WW-748 for accuracy, power and a much flatter Trajectory.

Nothing wrong with trying the Sierras though, especially if you have a good Tracking Dog close by.

Do you not understand the the difference between momentum and power (i.e., energy)? While a 165 gr. bullet would likely provide a flatter trajectory, a 220 gr. bullet would likely provide better penetration (assuming that full house rather than woosey loads were used in each). At ranges up to 200 yards, the differences between the two in trajectory won't matter.

A friend is tasked with acquiring firearms for the NYPD, all their .308 sniper rifles are required to have 1:12" twist only, they don't shoot anything larger than 160gr

Remington uses both 12 and 11 1/4 twists for their 308 tactical and target rifles.

As a sporting round the 303 British also gained a reputation as a "slayer" with 215 grain bullets at not a lot above 2,150fps.

I knew an old guy that shot a lot of game here in UK and in Russia and elsewhere with his 303.

When asked if he favoured the 150 grain or 174 grain loads he'd say 174 grain and ONLY IF he couldn't get the 215 grain load.

So assuming bullet contstruction isn't an issue I also say it would work if stabilised.

And probably be ideal with old traditional cup and core bullets with a blunt round nose.

In fact some in Europe don't like long round blunt nose BONDED bullets as they say they don't expand but tend to "bend" as it were and don't penetrate straight.

8x57 Mauser with a 227 grain traditional bullet is the European "almost" equivalent. Actually a better round that the 308 you are thinking of.

But as you say you use what you have. Or the old 303 British 215 grain loading I mentioned.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by quickdraw:
I'm worried more about penetration than expansion. ...

Then a 165gr Partition is what you need. IMR-4064 or WW-748 for accuracy, power and a much flatter Trajectory.

Nothing wrong with trying the Sierras though, especially if you have a good Tracking Dog close by.

I think you'll find that the old standards like Corelokt, Woodleigh, Barnes Originals et al are designed for moderate velocities. Second, he said he had a stash of 220s he wanted use up and based (once again) on my own experience with the 30-40 Krag they will perform like champs on small and medium game.

I haven't shot anything bigger than dear but the Krag had a good rep on bear and moose, too.

And forgot to mention the Reduced Recoil with the 165gr-ers. No idea if it would bother you or not, but there are a lot of folks on AR who begin if Recoil is more than a 17cal RedRyder.

I can't think of a single Bullet Manufacturer that intentionally designed a 220gr Bullet to Expand Properly at the Velocity you will have beyond 100yds.

But..., you should use whatever you want and if 220gr Bullets in your 308Win is what you want, best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by quickdraw:
I'm worried more about penetration than expansion. There are better choices for a big woods big bullet gun, but I'm trying to make use of what I have. I'm talking 50yds or less, so we're not talking much muzzle velocity loss.

I've got some old Sierra RN bullets. They are short for weight at 1.305 inches long, so theoretically they should stabilize in a 1-12" twist barrel at 2200 fps.

Thanks to all for the replies.

Quickdraw. Time to get past all the BS and see where the rubber meets the road. Your 220 gr. Sierras will shoot just fine, even in a 1 in 12" twist. Anyone saying otherwise is full of it! Strong words but I'll pass on what data I used in a Winchester M70, 22" barrel and 1 in 12" twist.

Powder is W-760, bullet the 220 gr. Sierra. I also used the 220 gr. Hornady round nose but the Sierra was the more accurate.

Start load: 42.0 gr. for 2177 FPS at 42,000 C.U.P.

Max load: 44.0 gr. for 2295 FPS at 46,900 C.U.P.

I worked up to the max load with both bullets. The Hornady did 2290 FPS and the Sierra did 2310 FPS, quite close in speed from my rifle.

Pressures seemed to be mild in my rifle.
For accuracy, the Hornadys did right at one inch and the Sierras did .375" to .50"

So much for the .308 wont shoot well with heavy bullets. For the record, I wonder just how many naysayers have even tried shooting those heavy bullets from a .308 or are they just parroting that same old BS the hacks in the gun rags spout off.
INaturally, Winchester dropped the 200 gr. loading and never went with the 220 but that's because they won't shoot 5,000,000 FPS and blow up a bull moose an 10,000 yards so sales were poor. Doesn't mean it was a lousy load.
The late Karamojo Bell, you know the dude that did in all those elephants with a measly 7x57 maauser once opined that the .308 with 220 gr. full metal jacket just might be the perfect elephant gun. Well maybe for him but he did know what he was doing and was an excellent shot.
Anyway, try that load working up but looking at the low pressure shown in the data, I'm of the thought one could go a bit higher without any problem. Note that 2310 FPS is ONLY 90 FPS from advertised velocity for 220 gr. bullets in the 30-06.
Paul B.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

I can't think of a single Bullet Manufacturer that intentionally designed a 220gr Bullet to Expand Properly at the Velocity you will have beyond 100yds.

But..., you should use whatever you want and if 220gr Bullets in your 308Win is what you want, best of luck to you.

Your inability to think is well documented

Besides, you're in that enviable proffession where one seldom needs to be correct; just need to win the argument.

Then there is Less Weight to carry with the 165gr Bullets compared to the Heavy 220gr Bullets. Lets see, with 3 Down and 1 Up, that would be 220gr less weight. But it must be off-set by the difference in Powder usable with the Lighter Bullet.

So going to the Holy Grail of Reloading Manuals(Hodgdon #26) the 220gr is best sent on its way with 46gr of H4350 and the 165gr-er with 46gr of BL-C2, or Zero additional Weight due to Powder.

Soooooo, you can save a Heafty 220gr that you DO NOT have to tote around by going to the 165gr-ers.

If room for enough powder is the problem with 220s in the .308, then the answer is simple enough - use BlueDot. Plenty of room and cuts the recoil too.....



.

There's plenty of room for the powder and 220s, I just loaded some today.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
The .308 Win can push a 200 grainer to about 2500 FPS......Frankly, I can see little use for a heavier bullet that might get you 2200 or so.....I think the 2400-2500 range will provide better results.

I also suspect the velocity loss will result is possible stabilization difficulties.

Agreed. I really like shooting 165gr bullets in a 308, which is pure satisfaction in the results it gives on the game that I would use a 308 for, such as deer and hogs. Heavier bullets are just superfluous. Even with the 30-06 or 300WM or 300 H&H, I see no need for 220gr bullets, but IMO they are more appropriate with those cartridges than with a 308. I like my 308s with a 12" twist anyway. I like my 30-06, and 30 mag with a 10" twist, and have found that they will shoot 165gr bullets too. But I generally like 180gr bullets in the 06 and mags, especially the latest TTSX Barnes, which I'll bet good money it will out penetrate the 220grs anyway. If a guy just has to have super penetration, from a mag or 06, use the 200 gr Barnes, or perhaps a Swift. From what I know, the 308 can't drive the 200gr bullets fast enough to do them justice, so the 220 gr is questionable. The saving factor is the 220 Nosler. If it's like the other Nosler partitions I'm familiar with, the front part is very soft, and will open up readily. I've never tried them, but if I am correct about them being soft up front, I'm sure they will open up just fine at the reduced vel of the 308. I dunno about the Hornady. Could be the same. But again, why?

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Besides, you're in that enviable proffession where one seldom needs to be correct; just need to win the argument.

Are you saying that Hot Core is an attorney? If so, that explains a lot for sure. I'm not implying that is bad, or good, or funny, or ironic, or whatever. It just is.

KB

guess i just havent seen game run off after being hit by a 165 partition and its rare you recover a bullet so penetration with one isnt a consern as it wouldnt be with something like a 165 barnes. Either of those bullets will give you just as much penetration as a 220 soft nose cup and core bullet and you have the added advantage of tacking on at least a 100 yards to the effect range of the gun. I hunt some pretty thick wooded area and swamps but theres allway that time when you walk out of the woods into a field and there stands a deer. I personaly cant see any use in loading them in a 308 unless there all you have and your just trying to get rid of them.

Remington Model 7 (old; 3-screw) 18.5" barrel.

Norma brass
45.0 gr. of H4350
CCI-200 primers
220 gr. Sierra RN
2200 ft/sec almost exactly; ES less than 25
Shoots 3/4 MOA consistently.

This is the single most accurate load I have ever developed for this rifle. I have owned it since new (probably 30 years or so) and tried dozens of loads. A very few shoot MOA; this load is ALWAYS sub MOA, and on a good day has shot groups so small I'd be reluctant to tell them for fear of being called a liar.

I wouldn't worry about using it on most anything.