this is a warning thread as far as i'm concerned.
i have read many threads on how many loadings you can get out of brass before it goes bad. well all's i can say is PLEASE be careful. i had a recent experience where i have been working up several loads for a new project that i have (30/06AI),and had loaded the brass numerous times(appx12) but yet was not showing any obvious signs of fatigue. i made the comment to myself that i was going to chunk this particular brass after this last firing. well i didn't make it. i had a case head separation that created holy hell w/ the rifle stock and by the "grace of god" left me uninjured. no one's fault but mine. just a reminder that %*&!* happens no matter how careful you are and i can assure you that i am careful. the loads were not too hot, i simply pushed the envelope on how many times i loaded the brass. BRASS IS CHEAP


bounty hunter

Thanks for the safety post bounty hunter!
Glad to here you are OK, sorry about your rifle.


Smedley

bounty hunter, you mentioned there weren't any signs of fatigue on this brass, but you were gonna pitch it soon, was that just cause you 'felt' that it was time? I'm just curious, I know guys that are loading .06 and .270 brass for the 25th - 30th times. I'd be interested to see Steve Ricciardelli respond to this--I'm pretty sure he has some brass he has loaded for a number of times that is way up there......

I have some stuff that is into it's 12th round, now you got me paranoid!

Thanks for sharing your experience, like Smedley said, I sure am sorry about your rifle, but really glad your OK. Did the thing make a bigger than normal bang and scare @$^&# out of you?, or was it one of those deals where after the shot you knew something was funny and you just looked up and said WTF???

Regards--Don

Hey BH, Glad to hear you didn't get hurt.

What kind of rifle was it? Other than the Stock getting damaged, what else got trased on the rifle?

Has anyone mentioned about making a small " L " shaped Feeler Gauge to check the inside of the Case for an Insipient Case head Separation?

Were you Full Length Resizing?

fish

the reason that i was gonna trash brass was i am right at the end of my load development, had pretty much made up my mind what i wanted to use for elk hunting.
when the round went off the blast had a much different sound and i could see crap and corruption coming back in my face. i guarantee you in that one second you can think about a zillion things, everything goes to slow motion.

hc

the rifle was a rem 700 adl model that i bought in 1970 in 25/06. i had not shot rifle in many years and got the yearning for a .30cal. elk rifle. (didn't own any .30 before). had a new barrel installed in 30/06AI.
i beleive IF it would have been a bdl model it would have blown the floor plate open, scared the crap out of me and no harm no foul. as it was there was no place for gas to go in the magazine so it blew all of the wood out where the floor plate would have been. while the stock was completely ruined there was nothing else wrong. i took it to the smith that installed the barrel and had him check it out completly. i have a h-s kevlar stock coming, and gonna convert to a bdl configureation. i was PFL resizing. it definatly got my attention and these guys that want to reload there brass twenty times or so can press on without me, BRASS IS CHEAP.
h c thanks for the inquiry, if you have any ideas let me know.

bounty hunter

I don't keep records, but figure some of my M700's 30-06 brass has been reloaded 50 times easy. I reuse the cases indefinitely until the case mouth splits. The only seperations that I have experienced in this gun were with 75,000 psi loads -- can't blame that on old brass.

On the other hand, my TC 7-30 will seperate cases after 10 or so reloads even at modest pressures, owing to the stretchy TC action, so I do retire the 7-30 brass early.

If your bolt gun is seperating cases, and assuming you are setting the headspace correctly when you resize cases, then either your loads are waaaaaay too hot or else the chamber is sloppy.

one of the things i notice in 6x45 is that some of the brass reloads 20 times with no problem, and others just a few and will seperate. it doesn't happen alot, but it does happen, and with no signs on the case beforehand, (like a ring or shiney spot). my only guess is that it must be that blasto #2 powder

quote:

Originally posted by bounty hunter:
... if you have any ideas let me know..

Hey BH, Sure sounds like the Remington saved your bacon.

Let's see now. I know a lot of folks like to Fire-Form with all kinds of Fast Powder and fill the case with Cream of Wheat, Corn Meal, or whatever. And I know they have good luck with it, but I prefer other methods.

Since you have the AI chamber, you obviously need to do some Fire-Forming of some sort.

If you are determined to use 30-06 cases, I'd recommend you get a 33cal Expander put it in a Universal De-Primer and Pre-expand the Case Mouths to 33cal. Then run them through the AI Die set to P-FLR. The initially larger Neck will allow you to adjust them for "Zero Headspace" and pretty much eliminate the possibility of this happening again.

When you P-FLR, the Bolt should close with a "bit of resistance or snug" on the empty Case. If your Bolt closes with no resistance, then you have gone too far and you have a Headspace issue. This is what sounds like happened to you.
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You can also just buy 338-06 or 35Whe cases and P-FLR them with your AI Die.
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I always Fire-Form with some inexpensive bullets and a stout but not MAX Load. Even old FMJs would do for you. I have some 30cal 147gr FN-FAL FMJs that are amazingly good bullets for FMJs and they do a fine job of Fire-Forming.
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Make a Feeler gauge with a stiff piece of wire, something like a Paper Clip straightened out. Take a set of Side Cutters and nip the end off. You will notice you now have a tiny, sharp "chisel tip" on that end of the wire.

Take a pair of pliers and bend the Tip 90deg so the Chisel Tip will act like a scraper. The small leg needs to be only 1/16" long so you can slide it into the Case Mouth.

Go all the way to the bottom of the Case (on the inside) with the Feeler Gauge and pull it up the Case Wall. If you feel it snag on a slight groove (exactly where the Pressure Ring is located), then your Case has stretched there and you have what is called Insipient Case Head Separation.

All this can be seen in the Speer Manuals. If you happen to have one, let me know which one it is and I might be able to tell you what page to go to so you can see it in a flick.
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As I said before, I'd "suspect" when you are P-FLRing, you are Resizing the Case just a bit too much. You probably need to screw the FL Die out just a small amount.

But, when doing the Initial Forming from the larger Case Necks, you might have to screw it in just a bit more to get them in the rifle. Then after Fire Forming, it may need to be screwed back out just a small amount.

This is because of the "Spring Back" on the newly Reformed Cases.
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You should be able to get more than 12 reloads on your cases. But in order to do so with some confidence that you don't have an Insipient Case Head Separation issue, I'd also recommend you "Section a single Case" from the Lot after every other shot. Like firigs 2, 4, 6, etc., until you know for sure the problem is resolved.
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It will work out just fine for you.

In my Semi-auto I usually scrap the brass after four or five firings.

In my bolt rifles I get more firings because I don't full length size except when absolutely necissary.

No, I don't even FL size hunting loads.

I DO cycle all loads that will be carried hunting through the rifle so that I can absolutely verify that they will infact chamber.


AllanD

guess I should consider doing a brass swap. I had been thinking about what would happen if the brass failed. I have 6 shots now on my 375RUM group of brass, and I do not load to max. Either way, I really dont want to blow up my stock.

Are you having trouble with your headspace? The AI should stop the case from growing.
My 2 cents.
Larry

As mentioned we have to keep checking inside of the cases to catch insipiant head separations before they let go.

Fred Huntington got 50 reloads from a 30-06 case and I have pushed some about that far also.

Its either a improper set FL die or the rifles headspace is wrong. I suspect the headspace.

Smoke or ink a new case at the shoulder neck junction and close the bolt on it. It should cut into the ink at that junction and actually compress it some there. If not the headspace was set wrong as it should be minus .004".

I have been reloading since the early 60s and have had a few head separations in that time and as the range master of a busy range I have seen a whole bunch more. The next one I see that blows the bottom off an ADL will be the first. I don't care how many times your brass has been reloaded, unless it was a gross overload a simple head separation will not cause that kind of destruction. Your problem was not caused by fatigued brass.

I had a bunch of 22-250 brass that had been loaded a lot, I have no idea how many times, Anyway I ended up with 6-8 head seperations with no consequences to me or the rifle, a Savage, I don't ever want to have one with the 300.

I tend to agree with Jim White. Is it a coincidence that this happened soon after the re-chambering?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bounty hunter:
just a reminder that %*&!* happens no matter how careful you are and i can assure you that i am careful. the loads were not too hot, i simply pushed the envelope on how many times i loaded the brass. BRASS IS CHEAP

There is no envelope on how many times you can reload brass. As long as you don't have a headspace issue and you anneal once in a while you can use it indefinitely. The problem here is that you only get to "overload" it one time!

I had a bunch of head separations with a 7Mag before I learned how to set my dies for a belted case back in the 70's. I never knew anything was different until I opened the bolt and a half inch piece came out. my opinion is that something else was going on besides a head separation from fatigue of the brass, but that's only an opinion.