So I loaded up some H100V and IMR4350 to 2985 FPS with each powder.

Then I loaded 5 of each and had a shoot off to choose the one that shot best for a hunting load.

As you can see this is not acceptable.

I do think it is interesting that the IMR4350 went vertical and the H100V went horizontal.

These were shot at 100 yards.

I sanded the stock to relieve the barrel channel all but the very tip and if that does not show improvement then I will relieve the tip as well for a free floated barrel.

I am going to load these back up and I will do the same shoot off again.

This rifle shoots this size group at 300 yards normally.

Are these 4350 & H1000 loads new to this rifle or are these loads that were previously much more accurate?? Also you don't say what weight of bullet you loaded, only the velocity.Have you changed bullets?

The rifle is a Wby Vanguard. The powders are IMR 4350 and H100V. The bullet is the 182 Nosler Etip seconds.
These shot well with H4831 at 2825 FPS. I don't want to use H4831 because I think that 71 grains of powder should be doing more than 2825 FPS. We have a 22" 30-06 that does 2750 with these bullets.

That doesn't look like a powder issue.

Mono-metals seem to like a jump to the lands.

Barnes suggests starting at .0050 off the lands, though I have been able to find great accuracy with them at book COL in quite a few rifles.

Seat them deeper in .0010's increments and I think you will see some changes in accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
These shot well with H4831 at 2825 FPS. I don't want to use H4831 because I think that 71 grains of powder should be doing more than 2825 FPS. We have a 22" 30-06 that does 2750 with these bullets.

Your problem is that you're using a chronograph to decide what your powder charge should be. You should lose the chronograph and work up loads noting where the best accuracy is; then if you're curious you can chronograph them.

The tendency to use a chronograph to decide if a load is safe, what the powder charge should be, etc. is a pestilential affliction.

I like to find a bullet and velocity range then I can use seating depth to fine tune a load.

The 30-06 with a short barrel is within 75fps. Bet it's not anywhere near 71 grains of powder. You are talking hunting and that 75fps wont make a bit of difference. Find someone with $$$ that would be a proud owner of a Wby Vanguard and enjoy the 30-06.

Tested again today. At least the groups are round. The wind was horrible.

The bottom target had one complete miss with Hybrid 100 V.

I am thinking my son could use the H4831 loads as I still have a box of 20 loaded from last year. The velocity with those is actually at 2900 after looking at my notes.

Or...I might start seating the bullets farther out and try the IMR 4350 load. The loads tested here were seated at 3.380. The measurement seated on the lands I got is 3.550 which means there is a definitely room to test the seating depth.

Or...I might start over with some R22 which only comes into town about once a month, I don't know maybe I'll save that for next season.

The good news is my 300 RUM is not finicky at all.

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
I don't want to use H4831 because I think that 71 grains of powder should be doing more than 2825 FPS.

Not really. Try working up a bit and i think you will find much better results.

Quit trying to reinvent the wheel.
71 grains of 4831 is a light load.
There is no reason to go away from 4831, or Rl22
I have over 50 powders, and I do not stray from RL22, or 4831 in 270, or 300 win. Some are as good, but none are better
Start off with 180 grain Sierra flatbase Sierra # 2150. I have these, and 180 Nosler Part. Once you get it on paper with Sierra's, the Nosler Partition should print pretty close. I have never shot the etip,
74 Grains 4831. I shoot 76 grains, I am close to 3100pfs, but i don't care, as accuracy is more important. but most books will go to 74. Once you get it shooting then switch bullets to find your load.
Put chrono away. An elk does not know the difference in 100fps, nor will you, unless you shoot over 400yds, and with those groups you will not be.
I have said it for 20yrs, if a 300 does not shoot with 74 H4831, and 180 Sierra, sell it, it won't shoot.

The max load listed for H4831 and the Etip on Hodgdon reloading page is 71.8 grains. I got ejector marks on the cases at 72 grains so I won't go higher.

A chrony helps to see pressure signs before they begin to show on the cases themselves. Like velocity flatlining or even going down even though the powder charges are higher.

A chrony is one of the best tools you can have in reloading.

Did I not say to use another Bullet?
Did I not give you the exact recipe?
Is it that hard to actually read.
Give David a call,, since you use his targets, and ask him.He will tell you to throw that shit away, but you go ahead, and make it work.
Great chrono work on a five inch load, really special work there.

Did I offend you somehow?
I am not done working on the rifle or the load.

I'll be using Nosler Etips in this rifle so I will work on loads for them.

I have another 300 win mag I might try the flat base Sierra 180 in. I'll have to order some though no one here stocks those. My brother wants 180 Speer flat base but I was going to sneak in the Sierras instead. The pet load for that rifle was 72 grains IMR 4831 with a Speer 180 flatbase.

Load worked up without using a chronograph.



Load worked up without using the best reloading tool since sliced bread, the chronograph.



No chronograph use here and a less than 5 inch group.



Still no chronograph use.

Grumulkin thanks for sharing.

Those were all done right as well as they are all at least two grains under book max.

Most guys who don't use chronographs are usually trying to brag about 80000 psi loads. I followed these too closely before the chronograph and was making grossly overpressure loads too. It wasn't until I got the chrony until I found out these loads actually were producing lower velocities to boot. Reading Saeeds reloading pages really opened my eyes to the benefits of using a chrony while reloading.

I used to use my chronograph to see which load gave the best velocity with the least amount of powder when I used 375's and a 458. I find the chronograph to be quite handy.

really thinking your gun just dont like those bullets , just my opinion. Is there a particular reason your hung up on making those bullets shoot? I am always more concerned about accuracy over anything else when you get down to the brass tacks, within reason of course, dont want a velocity that isnt gonna do the job when it gets there either, so common sense comes into play. If you know of another bullet the rifle will shoot, i would go back to it and call it good. Now, if you're just determined to make this bullet shoot, you may be burning up a lot of powder and bullets to no avail if the gun just doesnt like that bullet. Maybe even try a heavier or lighter bullet and see how that goes?

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
The rifle is a Wby Vanguard. The powders are IMR 4350 and H100V. The bullet is the 182 Nosler Etip seconds.
These shot well with H4831 at 2825 FPS. I don't want to use H4831 because I think that 71 grains of powder should be doing more than 2825 FPS. We have a 22" 30-06 that does 2750 with these bullets.

No, it's not the bullet. It's the delusion that 71 grains of H4831 should give better than 2,825 fps.

This rifle normally shoots everything well including another load with this bullet.
The journey is most of the fun of reloading. My goal is good accuracy plus upper velocity for that cartridge. I have always been able to find it in a bolt action and usually with less attempts. That's half the fun of reloading though. The next best part is taking game with those reloads. Although on game pretty much anything that comes out of the barrel could work.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
The rifle is a Wby Vanguard. The powders are IMR 4350 and H100V. The bullet is the 182 Nosler Etip seconds.
These shot well with H4831 at 2825 FPS. I don't want to use H4831 because I think that 71 grains of powder should be doing more than 2825 FPS. We have a 22" 30-06 that does 2750 with these bullets.

No, it's not the bullet. It's the delusion that 71 grains of H4831 should give better than 2,825 fps.

72 grains is max for that rifle with that bullet according to brass signs. That's why I am done with the H4831 load.

I was going to try some IMR 4831 but it's unavailable atm. I did pick up some R23 to try. That way I'll use the IMR 4350 in our 30-06's.

R Miller

FWIW,

Questions,

Do you use DIFFERENT brands or head stamps of brass?

Have you weighed your brass for weight differences?

Have you done an internal H2o capacity check of the brass you are using?

The 300 Win Mag has a BIG differences in the INTERNAL capacity's of brass,
which run from 87.5 grs to 95.5 grs, within brand name/head stamps.

As you can see,
a load that is built for a certain weight of brass/capacity can and will give different results,
high pressure or low fps etc.

I ran into this with my hunting partners 300 WM,
he was using MIXED brands etc, and getting shotguns groups and blown primers etc,
until we weighed and sorted the brass into 1.0grs lot spec's etc.

Then retested his loads and it all came together.

Might be worth the effort to check that brass etc.

Tia,
Don

The brass for these E-tip loads is all Federal.

Todays test with R23
72.5---2940
73---xxxx
73.5---2970,2955,2962
74---2994,2995,xxxx

Chrony was giving me fits today. It was windy again but it always is here this time of year.

This is a 3 shot group at 74 grains.

This is 4 shots with 180 Hornady SST at 2880. I don't know what powder these are might be H4831. I often load mid book loads for plinking with whatever powder cans are almost empty and whatever cases although these four were all PMC.

I don't care for those mono-metal expanding bullets and see no reason to use them outside of the Communist States that have banned lead, and even if I were to hunt in one of those states I'd consider having the chambered round being a real bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by wtman:
really thinking your gun just dont like those bullets , just my opinion. Is there a particular reason your hung up on making those bullets shoot? I am always more concerned about accuracy over anything else when you get down to the brass tacks, within reason of course, dont want a velocity that isnt gonna do the job when it gets there either, so common sense comes into play. If you know of another bullet the rifle will shoot, i would go back to it and call it good. Now, if you're just determined to make this bullet shoot, you may be burning up a lot of powder and bullets to no avail if the gun just doesnt like that bullet. Maybe even try a heavier or lighter bullet and see how that goes?

I think the rifle just doesn't like these bullet either.

I loaded some up at different COAL and tested them at 200 yards they were all double the size of the crappy 100 yard group.

I did switch bullets as I do already have a box of 180 ETIPs that group well as well as 200 TSX's.

10 shot group 100 yards 180 Ballistic tip and 70 grains IMR 4350.
Windy as always here but the tumbleweeds were entertainment between shots.

Edited for clarification.

These are factory firsts Nosler Ballistic Tips I bought locally and I have not chronographed these.

Maybe there was a reason those bullets were seconds?

It seems it doesn't matter the powder, they aren't shooting for you...

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Maybe there was a reason those bullets were seconds?

It seems it doesn't matter the powder, they aren't shooting for you...

No, you missed part of it. He said:

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
These shot well with H4831 at 2825 FPS. I don't want to use H4831 because I think that 71 grains of powder should be doing more than 2825 FPS. We have a 22" 30-06 that does 2750 with these bullets.

The problem is chronograph infatuation. If he wasn't using a chronograph, neither he nor an animal he shot would have any idea there was something wrong with the bullet.

Since the price of Nosler bullets in general is ridiculous, about all I shoot of that variety are seconds and I've never had an accuracy problem with them.

quote:

The problem is chronograph infatuation. If he wasn't using a chronograph, neither he nor an animal he shot would have any idea there was something wrong with the bullet.

The best way to ruin a hard hitting kill every rifle that has been doing the job for decades is to chronograph it.

I've never had a 300 Win that didn't like 70 grains of IMR4350 and a Nosler 180 Partition. Several friends use the exact same load with good results.
I would definitely guess a bullet problem. Did you weigh any of the seconds to see if the reason they are seconds is inconsistent weights? Also, try some Sierra Match Kings to see what you get. If I get a cranky gun, I always try a couple match bullets in it to see what it is capable of doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Maybe there was a reason those bullets were seconds?

It seems it doesn't matter the powder, they aren't shooting for you...

No, you missed part of it. He said:

quote:

Originally posted by RMiller:
These shot well with H4831 at 2825 FPS. I don't want to use H4831 because I think that 71 grains of powder should be doing more than 2825 FPS. We have a 22" 30-06 that does 2750 with these bullets.

The problem is chronograph infatuation. If he wasn't using a chronograph, neither he nor an animal he shot would have any idea there was something wrong with the bullet.

Since the price of Nosler bullets in general is ridiculous, about all I shoot of that variety are seconds and I've never had an accuracy problem with them.

Actually these a factory firsts I bought locally and this load never went over a chrony.

I think I need to let my son shoot it instead I me.