I posted some time ago about issues I had with case head separation in a 338 WM. The responses were to form a false shoulder by first expanding to 35 or such.

I was hoping to get some recommendations on expander dies/mandrels. Something similar to this? Cheaper/easier route I am not thinking of?


https://www.brownells.com/relo...-dies-prod38807.aspx

I have that Sinclair expander, but only use it for .308.

It's good kit, but you could probably get by with a .358 or .366 expander rod/button for your .338 size/decap die. I'd pull the decap pin and set the expander far enough from the neck/shoulder sizing portion of the die. As long as the expander has adequate taper you'll be fine.

Inside case neck lube is a really good idea. Brownells has Imperial sizing die wax - probably the very best stuff.

As delved into on another thread, you could just get a few .35 bullets, lubricate and insert them backwards and then pull them.

Just get a .35 caliber expander and put it on your .338 sizing die stem without the decapping pin in place. Run your .338 case over the .35 expander, but not so far into the die as to squeeze the neck back down. If you have any problem getting the case mouth to slip over the larger expander then bevel the inside of the case mouth + lubricate the inside of the necks.

Once you've expanded all of your necks, reset your .338 sizer die with its proper expander button so that it resizes the expanded necks only enough to allow them to enter the chamber of your rifle with light resistance.

The problem is caused by your handloading practice of headspacing on the belt..

Set you reloading die to half the neck and fireform your case, like you would on a beltless case..keep off the shoulder..

The practice of expanding the necks with 35 cal mandrils or whatever is for expanding to a 358 Norma...You simply resizing your case improperly and don't need any additional dies etc to correct the problem..same with any belted case, don't resize to the belt, simple resize the case until you get a lightly snug case, that's when your on the shoulder..

he needs to fix his too short cases or they will separate.
doing the right thing later will help but for now he needs the false shoulder to hold everything in place.

just as some advice/heads up to the OP.
even doing the false shoulder thing now, older cases might still leave you with stretched cases that can still crack.
you have already taken the metal away from those ones.

you want to start things off right on new cases for best results.

just get you an expander ball in 35 cal.
turn it down out of the die, and back your die up in the press and run the cases over it.

then re-set your size die to get a crush , easy crush, fit to your rifle.

you'll know, you'll feel it [in the bolt handle]go from can't to just can in like 1/8 turn of the die.

take your time and don't force things... you'll know.

My plan is to form the false shoulder and then fire to get a fire formed case. I will start with fresh brass for this.

After that, I will reload like normal and adjust the dies to barely bump back the shoulder (0.001-0.002 as well as I can adjust the die holding my breath). I normally go back 0.002-0.004", since my loads are generally for hunting. I measure this with the Sinclair/Hornady tool, as I do with all other nonbelted calibers.

My issue and why I am pursuing this avenue is that I had cracking and separations after two loads. The first was with virgin brass that I sized (which did not set the should back). The second load I bumped the shoulder back 0.003". I still had cracks and a separation on this second load. Given this, I can only logically deduce that much of the stretching occurred on the first firing. And this false shoulder will eliminate this stretch on the first firing and I can get a few reloads out of the case.

I haven't sent the rifle back to Ruger, but my measurements of virgin brass and fired brass would suggest the chamber is generous, but within SAMMI specs.

Yes, cheaper than that; get a Lee universal expander die and I will make you a long tapered plug for .35.
We have all said that you are oversizing your brass, and need to expand it first, to 35 caliber or so.

All Ruger will do if you sent it back is say it's within SAAMI specs.

I'm with Lamar on this. I learn 50 years ago to treat belted cases as though they were beltless. About that time too Layne Simpson of Shooting Times said he turned the belts off some of his cases.

Unless you're going after dangerous game I believe I'd only partially full length size or even neck size. If you neck size eventually your case will get tight and you'll have to full length size it to bring it back to specs.

Even making a false shoulder with a 35 caliber die might not be enough from the firing pin strike to drive the case yet deeper in the chamber.

Unfortunately, a false shoulder is not going to help you if you're getting case head separations.
You are moving the shoulder too much after the initial firing, STOP, buy a neck die, neck size until cases become hard to chamber, then bump the shoulder.
The 338WM grows, on average, .014" from virgin, the belt controls headspace and it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to change this dimension.
I believe you must be shooting loads that are NOT at max pressure, then you bump the shoulder causing the case to again stretch to meet the shoulder. This is your problem, I'm sure.
The shoulder and neck expand before the case ever stretches, therefore the belt is negated after the first firing and the case then headspaces on the shoulder.

Cheers.

It is precisely because headspace is normally controlled at the belt (definitional) that chambers for belted rounds can be made so sloppy. I mean, why expend more time setting chamber reamers just to make life simpler for reloaders?

Creating a false shoulder does help. I do it, as do others here. It only helps if done to new, unfired brass. Once the case stretches to fill the over-generous chamber the incipient separation - just above that headspace-controlling belt - has occurred. And it's not going away.

The other approach is to stick a bullet in the lands......again, using new unfired cases.....and fireform. That relies on neck tension uniformity. But those, like DPCD, who have done it a few thou times know correct resistance/feel chambering the round.

With either approach, yes, you must then be careful not to bump the shoulder more than necessary during subsequent resizing.

Only thing needed to do is fire a newly loaded piece of new brass or a new factory round, and use that fired piece of brass as a gauge in setting up your die. All that expanding the neck, resizing a false shoulder and fire forming, is a useless waste of time and putting undue stress and wear on the brass. If chamber is so far out of spec. that new brass is separating, then barrel needs attention not the brass.

Phil

quote:

Originally posted by Greyghost:
Only thing needed to do is fire a newly loaded piece of new brass or a new factory round, and use that fired piece of brass as a gauge in setting up your die. All that expanding the neck, resizing a false shoulder and fire forming, is a useless waste of time and putting undue stress and wear on the brass. If chamber is so far out of spec. that new brass is separating, then barrel needs attention not the brass.

Phil

None of this.

The first firing in many belted mag chambers results in excessive stretch just above the belt.
About one of every three I've owned. Even if you can't see it, you can feel it with a probe inside the case. You can set dies properly till pigs fly, you will not rescue the now badly stretched once-fired cases. No matter what you do, they are apt to continue to separate.

Treating unfired brass as suggested is far from uesless, results in less stress on brass - not more. Specifically, it is reducing (not eliminating) stretch in that area just above the belt.

If a chamber is so far out of spec that factory loads are resulting in complete or partial separations the manufacturer may take note. But twice had problematic belted cartridge rifles returned to me with "chamber in spec" notes attached. Only after learning to form a false shoulder have I been able to get brass beyond 2 firings in those guns.

If its that far out of spec. Barrel needs attention! Whether some fool polished the lugs so far that belt head-space spec., is gone or throat is so warn that the shoulder spec is out of spec. Either way its the barrel and not the brass.

The 338 has enough taper to it that firing new brass in dry chamber and a correct belt head space... cartridge will set to shoulder without separation.

If the rifle isn't to spec on the belt, no factory ammo would be safe... and barrel needs attention!

Phil

Phil

Saw one or two of your once fired cases in half length wise and file smooth and you can see if it thinned in front of the belt.

quote:

Originally posted by Greyghost:
If the rifle isn't to spec on the belt, no factory ammo would be safe... and barrel needs attention!

No. You are confusing dangerous headspace, separations on first firing from something that is downright typical for belted mag chambers.

If the OP had complete, or even partial, separations with factory ammo the correct answer would be to send it back.

He's talking about poor case life due to thinning (incipient separation) above the belt. You could rethread the barrel snug, recut, but it is expedient and safe to adjust new brass as we have discussed.

Cutting would make for a nice demo pic! Wish I'd saved some of mine.

Yes, what Sam said.
What tolerance would be in the not safe category?
As I have said many times, the difference between a minimum piece of brass and a maximum chamber belt length, is .015 as I recall. That is so generous that no one would accept that, yet, SAAMI (voluntary) specs allow for it, and rifles are routinely fired that way.
It won't cause any issues unless you want to reload the brass and continue to set the shoulder back.
Every reloader must understand how to deal with this situation.
I could make the belt depth 1/4 inch, and the rifle would be perfectly safe, speaking of safety. Either the extractor would hold the case back, or it wouldn't fire at all. And actually, a dry chamber is worse than a wet one for stretching; ideally you want the case to move back against the bolt face and allow the shoulder to form. In a dry chamber, that is when you get stretching.

quote:

Originally posted by vzerone:
Saw one or two of your once fired cases in half length wise and file smooth and you can see if it thinned in front of the belt.

I am going to grab remnants to see if I can do just that. I am unsure if I have a virgin unfired case from the same batch, but I know I have the first fire (no setback from the Hornady factory) and the second fire with cracking (After setting the shoulder back 0.003" in sizing).

Not impossible for someone to change the headspace of the belt, but only an idiot would do it. Its tight and it was meant to be tight. Usually .007 or less. min. and max. on the chamber is most times .220-.227 though Weatherby's are even tighter at .220 to .224. Brass is usually .212 to .218 as long as belt is within those specs. and the shoulder hasn't been changed case head isn't going to separate. Screw around all you want with false shoulders but its all BS.

quote:

Originally posted by Samuel_Hoggson:
It is precisely because headspace is normally controlled at the belt (definitional) that chambers for belted rounds can be made so sloppy. I mean, why expend more time setting chamber reamers just to make life simpler for reloaders?

Creating a false shoulder does help. I do it, as do others here. It only helps if done to new, unfired brass. Once the case stretches to fill the over-generous chamber the incipient separation - just above that headspace-controlling belt - has occurred. And it's not going away.

The other approach is to stick a bullet in the lands......again, using new unfired cases.....and fireform. That relies on neck tension uniformity. But those, like DPCD, who have done it a few thou times know correct resistance/feel chambering the round.

With either approach, yes, you must then be careful not to bump the shoulder more than necessary during subsequent resizing.

You are talking out your BUTT.
Everything you reference pertains to EXCESS HEADSPACE with cartridges that headspace on the datum of the shoulder. NOT a belt.
The headspace of the belt is .220" from case head to front of belt, this is STATIC, IT CANNOT CHANGE BY YOU OR ANY DIE MADE.
The belt is adjacent to the solid web area of the case. Moving it is virtually impossible.
What is happening with incipient case head separations is due to pushing the shoulder too far after the first firing, it has nothing to do with the belt headspace, which can only be .007" under .220". Measure your brass, my brass almost always measures .218"-.220".
Most rifle chambers are held to at least .220" if chambered correctly.
Because the case is held positively by the belt, the forward section of the case can easily blow out early in the burn to fill the chamber, if you measure case length prior to firing and again after firing, the case has SHORTENED to pull brass from the neck to fill the chamber, THEY DO NOT STRETCH.
You need to research before making false statements regarding headspace on BELTED cases.

Sorry to burst your bubble.

.416, you are completely missing the point. Nobody needs change headspace at the belt in order to improve case life with belted cartridges. As DPCD says, you could do so.

We are talking about preserving case life by preventing some of the brass flow that occurs just forward of the belt when the shoulder moves forward on first firing.

The technique we have described works. You might try it.

You can use the expression "brass flow" or "stretch". We are talking about the same thing.

Your observation concerning fired case length is correct. Fired length is often less than unfired.
That has zip, zero, nada to say about whether stretching above the belt (flow) has occurred.

It is when you run the fired case through the sizer that you discover brass has moved above the headspacing belt.

quote:

Originally posted by Greyghost:
Not impossible for someone to change the headspace of the belt, but only an idiot would do it. Its tight and it was meant to be tight. Usually .007 or less. min. and max. on the chamber is most times .220-.227 though Weatherby's are even tighter at .220 to .224. Brass is usually .212 to .218 as long as belt is within those specs. and the shoulder hasn't been changed case head isn't going to separate. Screw around all you want with false shoulders but its all BS.

Correct about the first part. Nobody is suggesting you must address that area of the brass. Nobody is suggesting headspace is not controlled by the belt. We are trying to improve brass longevity.

As to your last sentence you are admitting a lack of experience. The technique does work.

Above are split sections of the brass.

The first is a virgin unfired brass.

The second is after one firing. Brass prep was full length resizing of the virgin brass. This did not set the shoulder back from the virgin brass. This was the initial sighting in an load development. I did not sort the fired brass by powder used or grains. It would be between published start or max loads. The bullet used was a 210 grain Barnes TSX.

The third one was a second firing. The sheared separation is obvious. I did use a RCBS full length die. The shoulder was set back 0.003" from the fire formed case. The load was 66 grains of H414 with the 210 grain TSX, which is 1/2 grain off Barnes max data. I noted nothing unusual (thankfully). No difficult bolt lift. The case extracted fine. It was quite scary to see the rupture.

My logic tells me that much of the damage was done in the first firing. The deformed necking of the case is apparent. I did not move the shoulder from taking the brass out of the Hornady box until it was fired. I fully understand the adjusting of the die after the first firing, but my argument is that much or most of the damage is done in the first firing of the case.

I do not have a gauge to check the headspace to the belt and I have not sent the rifle to Ruger as of yet. I looked up the SAMMI specs for 338 WM, and my case growth between virgin and fired cases would suggest the chamber is within spec.

I would like to have any additional thoughts or critiques.

There you go, the proof in the puddling! Now if you DID send that rifle back I sure would include those two examples!!!

You can plainly see that the belt is 100% for head spacing and adds no strength to the web....and it would be perfectly alright to turn the belt off and headspace off the shoulder.

quote:

I would like to have any additional thoughts or critiques.

Actually, I think you have all of the information you need. Let's review:

1. Forget that your cartridge has a belt and treat it as you would any bottleneck cartridge.

2. Manipulate (form) your brass to headspace off of the shoulder with minimum clearance. Do this as first suggested by expanding the necks of virgin brass then running the expanded cases back into your .338 sizer die just far enough that they chamber with a bit of resistance felt as the bolt cams into place.

3. Keep your die set at this place. If shooting fairly high pressure loads you may experience some case spring-back, which may necessitate screwing your die a tiny amount deeper into your press in order for the reloaded cases to re-enter the chamber without undue resistance.

4. Your cases will ALWAYS exhibit a pressure ring (where they have been splitting previously), and this pressure ring will tend to move rearward on the case in proportion to the pressure of your loads (the higher the pressure the further rearward -- into thicker case wall metal -- the pressure ring will move.) This is because the chamber walls do not support the rear portion of the case. Unsustainably high pressures will create a situation where the diameter of the brass at the pressure ring is too fat for your chamber and the sizing die won't touch it. By that point your primer pockets are probably too loose for comfort, anyway. Which is why the "collet" full length die sold for swaging lower belted case walls is a solution looking for a problem to solve.

I'd like to expand on what Stonecreek said. Pretty much in agreement with him. After you have set up the cases correctly and fired them with the load you are going to be using I would color marker just the shoulder of the case with a black marker pen and set my sizing die to just barely kiss that shoulder. Another option is to neck size only after you have a proper fitted case, but mind you that with hot loads or lots of firings you will eventually have to full length resize your case keeping in mind what I mentions in the beginning of my post...that is just barely touch the shoulder.

I'm going to tell you how to form those new virgin cases. You want to lube all of the case INF FRONT OF THE BELT. Then you load a low pressure load say 25K. You can even use a cast bullet to save money rather then using jacketed bullets. With this method none of your case will obturate (stick to) the chamber wall and the case will form out to the chamber. What is happening with what you got now is the front part of the case, being thinner, expands out and obturates to the chamber wall and the more solid thinner bottom doesn't obturate and the pressure pushes it back casing a case separation. Pain in the ass having to do this, but a sure fire way of keeping the rifle as it is. Otherwise the barrel needs pulled and headspaced correctly.

quote:

Originally posted by metalman29:
My plan is to form the false shoulder and then fire to get a fire formed case. I will start with fresh brass for this.

After that, I will reload like normal and adjust the dies to barely bump back the shoulder (0.001-0.002 as well as I can adjust the die holding my breath). I normally go back 0.002-0.004", since my loads are generally for hunting. I measure this with the Sinclair/Hornady tool, as I do with all other nonbelted calibers.

My issue and why I am pursuing this avenue is that I had cracking and separations after two loads. The first was with virgin brass that I sized (which did not set the should back). The second load I bumped the shoulder back 0.003". I still had cracks and a separation on this second load. Given this, I can only logically deduce that much of the stretching occurred on the first firing. And this false shoulder will eliminate this stretch on the first firing and I can get a few reloads out of the case.

I haven't sent the rifle back to Ruger, but my measurements of virgin brass and fired brass would suggest the chamber is generous, but within SAMMI specs.

Why not seat a bullet so that it jams into the lands and use a stiff load of powder? This would be the same as fire forming AI brass cases from standard cases. The purpose of jamming the bullet is so that the case doesn't move and all of the pressure is directed to blowing the shoulder forward. One could lube the case although I have never done that.

After that set your sizing die such that the cases just chamber with little or no resistance.

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by metalman29:
My plan is to form the false shoulder and then fire to get a fire formed case. I will start with fresh brass for this.

After that, I will reload like normal and adjust the dies to barely bump back the shoulder (0.001-0.002 as well as I can adjust the die holding my breath). I normally go back 0.002-0.004", since my loads are generally for hunting. I measure this with the Sinclair/Hornady tool, as I do with all other nonbelted calibers.

My issue and why I am pursuing this avenue is that I had cracking and separations after two loads. The first was with virgin brass that I sized (which did not set the should back). The second load I bumped the shoulder back 0.003". I still had cracks and a separation on this second load. Given this, I can only logically deduce that much of the stretching occurred on the first firing. And this false shoulder will eliminate this stretch on the first firing and I can get a few reloads out of the case.

I haven't sent the rifle back to Ruger, but my measurements of virgin brass and fired brass would suggest the chamber is generous, but within SAMMI specs.

Why not seat a bullet so that it jams into the lands and use a stiff load of powder? This would be the same as fire forming AI brass cases from standard cases. The purpose of jamming the bullet is so that the case doesn't move and all of the pressure is directed to blowing the shoulder forward. One could lube the case although I have never done that.

After that set your sizing die such that the cases just chamber with little or no resistance.

Because the firing pin strike has enough power to seat the bullet deeper by pushing the case forward taking up the head spacing, and bullet touching something like can really raise the pressure!!

I have used the Jam the bullet into the Rifling technique hundreds of times. Also have used the Make a false Shoulder technique. I have not experienced either issue. Maybe you are using too high of a load, or too low of neck tension, if this technique does not work for you.

we are probably starting to confuse the poor guy with 5 different techniques.
he just needs to get his cases straight in the chamber and get them formed with minimal stretching and stress to the brass.

we could go on about moving everything forward including the belt in the chamber, blah blah.
but he needs to figure out the path of least resistance and get some cases made up.


oh good choice on cutting up the case with no flash hole, and good pictures.

I have been busy and unable to try the method yet. I hope to saw and reshoot after I do. I am watching the thread with interest.

One thing I have taken away is that something must be done if I hope to reload for this rifle. I would think we could all agree the first fire case shown above is consumed and needs to be discarded. I could not shoot factory ammo in this rifle and use the cases for reloading.

This was my first venture to reloading belted magnums and I was a bit naive. These results surprised me and have been a learning experience.

What I am still a bit confused on based on the variety of answers is that this level of stretching is not seen in all rifles. Most responses have been just to start headspacing off the shoulder after the first shot and it is just like an unbelted cartridge. In this rifle, I think my testing shows that is not the case. I can only surmise the chamber tolerance in the SAMMI could allow rifles that are able to not stretch such that case head separation is an issue. And allows other chambers like mine where the first shot essentially consumes the case life (and frankly necks it to a scary amount).

I think Sam said he saw this in 1/3 of his rifles.

And I do not agree that the stretching you show on the first shooting, is no longer a viable case. If you prevent further stretching, it will last longer than one shot.
I would check the headspace anyway, just to give you piece mind that it is ok. A No Go gauge is cheaper than postage to ship it back to Ruger.
A couple of points too; SAAMI specs are totally voluntary and no maker is bound in any way to follow them.
And, no maker warrants rifles for use with reloaded ammo.
Factory loads only, one shot per round.

If you want peace of mind whether the case would take a second firing if you head spaced it off the shoulder take one and reload it and only size it till the bolt just closes snugly on the case, or use that black ink marker I told you about, fire it, then section it and see if it changed any at all. Myself I wouldn't want them in that pre-stretched condition.

My worst example - Dad's Mk5 .300 Roy - would give about 2-4 partial separations/box on the second firing (1st reload). We were not bumping the shoulder at all, just neck sizing. This was back in the early '70s. Weatherby sent the rifle back, noting it was within spec.

But our other "problem puppies" made usable once-fired brass. It's just that case life kinda stunk. 2, maybe 3 reloads. Like vzerone, I was bothered enough to start creating false shoulders.

And DPCD is right, makers don't give a hoot about whether you can reload brass from their rifles. That goes for rifles chambered for rimless cartridges, too. It's just they must hold bolt face to shoulder (datum line) dimension to a spec.

Here's an idea for you. Form your 338 cases from new 458 cases keeping in mind to head space them off the shoulder. Adjust your sizing die accordingly. This way you don't have to piss around trying to modify those new 338 cases. Either that or expand those 338 cases up with say a .375 expander. That's not much of a step up.

Last week was handed a '03 conversion to mess with. .35 Whelen. Don't have a single piece of .35 Whelen. Trying to determine if it's AI.

So ran .30-06 over my .375R expander in one step. Then back down to .35, but only enough to chamber with effort. Loaded. Fired. Std .35 Whelen.

That may be pushing it, re need to anneal. Dunno. But do know running .338 necks over a .358 expander is a chip shot.

I'd go little larger then .358 to say .375.

Hornady makes some really nice tapered expander buttons. I had some Hornady .338wm dies and needed some 35 Whelen brass and had a pile of 270 Win Brass. Ordered a 358 button from Hornady for a few bucks and greatly smoothed out that step up operation.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I have used the Jam the bullet into the Rifling technique hundreds of times. Also have used the Make a false Shoulder technique. I have not experienced either issue. Maybe you are using too high of a load, or too low of neck tension, if this technique does not work for you.

Seat the bullets a smidgen long with just enough neck tension so that the bullets seat deeper when you chamber the round is the way to do it. When starting with new brass this gets you the most bang for the buck because it doesn't require to do anything to or with the brass other than to load and shoot. If you trim or deburr flash holes then you'd do that first.