I was just out testing my newest rifle this morning and in the process discovered something that I thought would promote some interesting discussion!
The rifle is a new Savage 10ML-II muzzleloading rifle. It is the ONLY one made today that is tested and designed to be used with SMOKELESS powder.
In my shooting I have been using several combinations of bullets/powders that have yielded 2300-2600fps muzzle velocities with 250gr pistol bullets.
Now, when I load a 338mag with 250gr bullets @ 2600fps I feel a fair amount of recoil, yet with this rifle it is hardly evident! WHY? Is it because I'm only loading 45-50grs of powder? I find this very interesting because it seems to lend credibility to WW's claims about their 300WSM delivering the same velocities as their older 300Win mag with less recoil. The WSM does indeed burn less powder and several shooters have reported noticing less recoil too. maybe they have something there! What do you all think?

John,

I don't know too much about muzzle loaders, but I am assuming that it is at least 45 caliber.

The reduced recoil is not only because of less powder but a much lower muzzle pressure.

There are two basic componenst of recoil.

Firstly, accelerating the weight of the gas and bullet to the muzzle.

So in this first component you only have 45 to 50 grains of powder as compared to maybe 70 grains plus in the 338.

The second component occurs when the bullet clears the barrel and the powder gas accelerates even further.

Basically, the "thrust" is determined by the rate at which gas exits the "nozzle".

Your 338 has a smaller nozzle but much higher gas pressure, thus it has a much greater weight of gas passing out of the nozzle in a given time.

In addition, in terms of felt recoil, since the 338 is high recoil, then reductions in recoil become very noticeable, whereas reducing the recoil of say a 270 by the same proportion would not be so noticeable.

I experience a similar situation with reduced loads thta I use in the 375 with 220 Hornadies loaded to around 2400 f/s with powder charges in the mid 40 grains. Recoil is much less thana 30/06 loaded up with 220 grainers.

Mike

yep i've seen it happen, we call it the rocket effect. a good example is the .257 wty mag very high rocket effect on this one.
the gases just can get out of the barrel fast enough
Kerry

Sounds reasonable to me! All I can say is that the recoil level of this rifle is almost nonexistant.

I think the standard formula for recoil energy is the velocity of the weight of the bullet and 1.5 times the weight of the powder. So if it takes less powder to propel the bullet then there will be less recoil energy.

But I am not sure recoil energy is really the perfect test of felt recoil. I think recoil velocity comes in as a factor.

At any rate this information is new, to me at least, but I would like to see some more facts first.

I too was out today shooting a muzzle loader as the season here in Mi starts soon. I shoot a Knight MK85 inline. I am shooting 150 grns(3 pellets) of pyrodex, and a 250 grn barnes sabot. 100 grns does not recoil much but add the third pellet and man does it kick!!! I have not seen one much less shot the new savage. I am curious though to see where this trend will lead. Where I live you can not shot a center fire rifle for deer shotgun or muzzle loader. I always grab my knight of the shotgun. But I wonder how this will effect the rule and reg on muzzle loaders. The aare concerned about the distance the gun can shoot and it seems that it is growing every year. 2600 fps is moving very nicley. What bullet are you using and what distance have you sighted in it to?? I sight mine in to 200 yards. beyond that the drop is huge and any slight mis-calulation on distance to target could mean a wounded deer.

Steve-
We are saddled with the same regulations, shotgun or muzzleloader only for our deer hunting. Thus far, my state hasn't approved the use of smokeless powder in MLs, so I might have to use bp
I'm using a 250gr Hornady XTP in a MMP high pressure sabot. Haven't shot at long range yet and need to before deciding what range to use as a zero but with these types of velocties I would imagine a 200yd zero would be good.

The free recoil of your firearm can be found using the formula below:

((weight of the bullet in pounds x the velocity of the bullet in feet per second)+(4,700 x the weight of the powder in pounds))squared / (64.348 x the weight of the gun in pounds)

or...

Efr=(((Wb*Vb)+(4,700*Wp))*((Wb*Vb)+(4,700*Wp)))/(64.348*Wg)

If you can figure out what that formula means I bet you also know what all the buttons do on a calculator!

I tested the forumla in my spreadsheet for ballistic calculations. But I don't get the same result as for example the calculator on Real Guns homepage (www.realguns.com), but only half the energy. I have heard that there are different types (felt vs ?) of recoil calculations, is this the reason or should I go back and doublecheck?

I'd make sure those bullets will withstand impact at those velocities before I'd use them on game.

Wachtel,

Pointblank has another recoil formula (www.huntingnut.com).

It is easy to quantify the energy the bullet imparts on the rifle. It is much more difficult to quantify the recoil of the acceleration of the powder / gas mass, because the velocity of the gas is not bled at a constant speed at the muzzle. And who is able to measure the velocity of the gas?

It is very hard to quantify the effect of the muzzle jet.

JMO, Dutch.