Looking for information on the 17 center fire , Thanks Bill

Do you really hate yourself that much?

Not great in any wind i've heard.

it's place is in the role of safety for use in crowded areas. It's long range but the bullet seems to loose all it's energy on very small things. It's an impressive killer of varmints but in fact has no more range than the .223 because of the weight of the bullet.

Of those I know that have a .17 Remington they like them.

ricciardelli

Thanks there will be no 17"s in this house

Thanks again

Vapodog beat me to it. I love mine - a CZ 527 American 17 Rem. It's for small critters near animals, buildings, neighbors, etc..

Redial

This is gonna be long...

It is my stories concerning THREE 17 caliber rifles I had...



Have you ever really made a BIG mistake in your life? If you haven't, you have never tried playing with the .17 Bee!

This is without a doubt one of the meanest and nastiest cartridges to reload! A royal pain in the ass!

And the results when you finally manage to get a few hundred loaded are pitiful!

I originally became interested because I wanted something different ... well that best describes the .17 Bee!

Cases are fragile and impossible to find in single lot numbers. Even trying to find .218 Bee cases to neck down was a challenge!

Add this to limited loading information (I could only find the cartridge listed in one manual!), extremely poor performance in a breeze greater than 1 mph, and a limited range of around 75 yards makes this cartridge a real bummer and a pig!

So, why did I ever try it? The same reasons that someone climbs mountains ... it was there! (And I wish it weren't!)

I tried several different powders ... BL-C(2), H-335, H-4198, H-4227, H-380, IMR-3031, IMR-4198 and even Unique and Bullseye!

None shot clean ... it was necessary to do a complete bore cleaning after every 5 shots, or so, sometimes less!

I couldn't get a 100 yard group, so I lowered my standards to 50 yards. Still, accuracy was miserable ... unless you consider a 3-shot group (NO THAT'S NOT A TYPO!) at 50 yards of 2 inches a good shooter!

But at least I won't go to my grave saying I never tried! (That is, if I will say anything at all while I am going to my grave ... grin ...)

I finally settled on H-4198 powder, and put all of 13 grains in the case on top of Remington 7-1/2 primers (and, yes, I tried other primers).

Sure, a 25 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity in the 3,200 fps range sounds kinda cute ... however, that velocity fell off faster than the refraction and reflection of light ... the square of the distance!

I did shoot a crow with it ... and almost had to take a second shot ... at the tremendous range of 75 yards ... luckily the .17 Bee has a low report, because it took 5 shots before I finally hit that damn bird!

What did I do with the .17 Bee? I found another sucker, told him how great it was, and sold it to him ... shit ... let him find the next one ... grin...

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Didja ever make the same mistake twice? I did!

In the 1960s I tried playing with the .17 Bee. In the 1980s I tried playing with the .17 MACH IV. Some people NEVER learn!!

The reason I started playing with the MACH IV was because we were sitting around the shop bull-shitting about rifle calibers and reloading experiences. I told my story about the .17 Bee, and one of the other liars there started talking about the .17 MACH IV and the fantastic performance of that little bullet.

When I got home I looked in my reloading closets, and I still had a hell of a lot of those little Hornady 25 grain, 17 caliber bullets in sealed boxes. I looked in my powder magazine and found that I had BL-C(2), H-335, H-4198, 2400, and H-4227 powders. I had a whole bunch of primers. The only thing I needed were dies, rifle, scope, and cases.

Well, Kimber rifles don't come cheap, Leupold optics don't come cheap, and even the little .17 caliber dies don't come cheap. But I just couldn't see letting those little Hornady bullets sit there collecting dust for another 20 years.

I actually located a distributor that had 400 Remington .211 Fireball cases of the same lot. And Kimber was actually shipping that little rifle. So now it was decision time ... what powder?

I decided that BL-C(2) would be a good one to start with ... since it is basically surplus powder, and available fairly cheap. WRONG! I loaded from 19.0 grains to 20.0 grains in 0.1 grain increments. No good! Sure I got velocities in the 3300 to 3700 fps range, but accuracy was absolutely miserable ... around 2 to 2-1/2 inches at 100 yards for 5 shots.

I did notice one thing though ... I didn't have to clean the barrel every 7 rounds ... only every 12!

Next choice was 2400 ... another cheap powder ... and again I loaded in 0.1 grain increments from 11.0 to 13.0 grains. Same results!

I figured that I would give this little runt one more chance at life, with me, and broke open good old H-4198. Loaded from 13.6 to 16.0 grins in 0.1 grain increments. There was a little improvement ... at the lower loads ... but when I got up to around 16 grains there was a remarkable improvement! There were also remarkable pressure signs!!

Now it wasn't really all that remarkable ... the 5-shot groups at 100 yards dropped to between 1 and 1-1/4 inches. I was almost happy ... almost ... but in the back of my mind, a 1-1/4 inch group for a "varmint" cartridge just doesn't hack it!

I played with that sucker for about a year, and finally figured that I had been sucked-in twice on these stinking little 17 caliber guns, and both times by P.O. Ackley!

Kimber wasn't in business much longer after I decided that I had once again wasted my money. And that Model 84 became a "collector's item". Sheesh! What some people will collect!

I took it to a gun show, laid it out on the table with the dies and shell holder and brass. I didn't put any price on it.

Soon this "older" gentleman came along and asked what I wanted for it. I kinda shrugged my shoulders and lied to him. I told him I had no idea of what it was worth, since I had inherited it, and was willing to accept whatever he thought it was worth.

His first offer was $125, and I told him to get the hell away from my table, he was blocking traffic! (I can be quite blunt at times.)

He sheepishly grinned and offered me a price around $125 higher than I had paid for the dies and the rifle and brass. I figured that would cover the cost of my powder and primers, and compensate me for the time I spent getting frustrated.

It was a done deal!

I was glad to see that gun disappear! And I made a promise to myself to never, NEVER, NEVER EVER, try another .17 caliber rifle again!

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"And I made a promise to myself to never, NEVER, NEVER EVER, try another .17 caliber rifle again!"

Does that ring familiar? If you read my story about the .17 MACH IV it was my closing sentence!

It was 20 years between my experiences with the .17 Bee and the .17 MACH IV. It was another 10 years before I tried another .17 caliber cartridge. This time it would be the .17 Remington.

Why? Because it was a legit cartridge. It had a home. It had parents. It had factory rifles chambered for it. It had factory brass available for it. It appeared to have a lot going for it!

So I bought one...a Remington 700, and slapped a Leupold piece of glass on top. Ordered my brass and dies and set about for a pleasurable experience.

I scanned through my reloading manuals and found that I had a good supply of the following recommended powders - IMR-4350, IMR-4320, IMR-4895, IMR-4064, IMR-3031, H-450, H-414, H-380, BL-C(2), H-335, H-4895, and even W-760. With 12 different powders available I just knew that I was going to finally find the right combination for a .17 caliber cartridge.

Did you ever live in a dream world?

My first choice, H-380 managed to push the little 25 grain Hornady bullet out of the barrel, but there was no particular place on the target, located 100 yards away, where the bullet would place itself!

BL-C(2) was just about as bad, as most of the other powders! Once again I had foolishly attempted to find a .17 caliber cartridge that would place 5 shots in a 1/2-inch group at 100 yards! I just wasn't gonna do it!

After trying three of these little bastards, I have decided that .17 caliber should be reserved for Daisy and Crossman! In B-B guns and pellet pistols!

It is my opinion, after going through probably 15 pounds of different powders, over 3,000 primers, around 3,000 bullets, and enough brass to re-plate the Statue Of Liberty, that if God would have intended man to hunt with a .17 caliber bullet he would have created it around the same time he created the .30-06!

The best I could get out of this thing was around 1 inch groups, and only on a day when the wind was no more than 1 mph ... maybe 2 mph.

For those of you that are willing to play with this caliber, my best load was with 25 grains of IMR-4320. About the best thing about this load is that it used the exact same weight of powder as it did in bullet!

Velocities had a Standard deviation of over 50 fps, possibly a little more, and muzzle velocities at 15 feet from the muzzle ran around 3950 fps.

Performance downrange was totally dependent on temperature, wind and humidity. One day I would get 1-inch groups, and the very next I would get 2-1/2 inch groups, and a few days later it would be back to 1 inch. I don't need that aggravation! It's tough enough for me to remember what month it is (forget about the day) and if I brushed my teeth! Let along looking at a barometer, thermometer, and wind speed indicator before squeezing off a shot...or two.

"And I made a promise to myself to never, NEVER, NEVER EVER, try another .17 caliber rifle again!"

Easy Steve ... deep, cleansing breaths .... relax... got yourself all worked into a lather!

FWIW, I chose the 17 Rem for the same reasons you did - I don't do wildcats. I'm a shooter and hunter, not an experimenter.

Regarding the Rem 700 in our contentious caliber, Cal Sibley has often posted similar results with his. Indifferent, variable accuracy. Maybe my CZ just has a better barrel and chamber than what's on a 700, I dunno. Mine have all been hammers and two are .172" bores!

If it'll ease your mind, I'll happily take all those nasty little evil bullets far away so they'll never torment you again! Just 'cuz I'm a fellow Montanan looking out for our own Brass too!

Cheers

Redial
Florence, MT

They be long gone, my friend, long gone...

I have used a .17 Rem. for a medium range varmint rifle for 6-8 years and really like it. My rifle is a Rem. Model 700. I only have two complaints. One is that those little bullets are a little hard to hold and get started into the seating die. The other is that Remington quit selling the 25 gr. PLHP bullets - they are really accurate in my rifle and explosive on little critters. If you get a .17 Rem. I would recommend Bonanza/Forster bench rest dies.

quote:

Originally posted by Dale:
...One is that those little bullets are a little hard to hold and get started into the seating die. ...

Never had a 17cal other than a couple of Spring Powered Daisy rifles.(Still have the Golden Eagle.)

Have handled the 17cal bullets and the above comment by Dale is what I immediately noticed. And they are hard to pick up off the floor.

The guys I know that had(emphasis on HAD) 17cals of any description all Moly Coated their bullets to reduce barrel fouling. I seem to remember some kind of comment about the accuracy being similar to what it would be like if you just knocked all the Lenses out of the scope if you didn't use Moly.

Well , I'm here to tell ya the .17 Remington , specifically in the CZ rifle in my case , is a beautiful little round in a P. dog town .

I've onlu used the 20 gr V-max , and the gun is not finiky at all ,shooting itty bitty groups with any reasonable powder charge . I've been using a moderate load of H322 , as the very small granules make for easier loading in the skinny necked cases .

I've shot over a hundred times without cleaning , and no noticable falloff in accuracy . The gun is quite effective to over 300 yards , but don't hold high at 300 or you will shoot over the top of them every time . I did notice it seemed to beome a bit inconsistent at 350 to 400 yards , though I made a number of good hits at 400.....

It's really neat to see the dogs fold up right in the scope , and I don't believe it shoots much different in the wind than a 222/223 class cartridge .

oh oh I better not tell steve about my little martini cadet in 17 ackley bee - shoots these little 17 gr bullets into decent groups and blows up PD's. Instead I'll mention by kimber SA in 17 rem. that still holds the record for the PD that flew the highest into the air

...and to read MANY positive opinions, and helpful advice on the .17 (and .20's), cruise over to saubier.com/forum. It's not a lovefest, just many folks enjoying sub-cals (and I'm guessing none have fat fingers, in order to handle them itty-bitty pills).
My 17AH with various 20-22 gr bullets is a hoot!

To Dale
Why do you recomend Forstar dies for the Remington 17