My first post, first off I have reloaded quite a bit but have learned a LOT browsing this forum. The posts by Seafire about using Blue Dot for light loads has got me very interested. I would shoot a few rifles of mine a lot more with these loads and it just sounds like fun. My question: are there other powders suitable for this purpose in rifles? I thought a long time ago I read about using Unique for this purpose. Is that feasable, and if not, why? Does it need fillers where Blue Dot doesn't?? The reason I ask is that I use Unique for a lot of handgun loads and have always had good results with it, therefore I always have some on hand and the I haven't looked for BlueDot locally, but you can bet I will. Just wondering. Thanks in advance to everyone here who have unknowingly "learned me a lot"
cleo

cleo
Lyman reloading Handbook 48th edition list several cast bullets loads using unique powder. loads listed are 1700 to 2000 fps. pressure is in the 40,000 cup range. unique has a quicker pressure curve than blue dot. there is published data for unique and I don't know of any published data for blue dot. there have been some rifles blown up using blue dot. So be prewarned!!!!
good shooting
Glenn

Cleo:

First welcome to the forum.

Second, I am a WVA native also! So I always go the extra mile for the home crowd.

Don't let the words about firearms being blown up with Blue Dot scare you. About any powder has blown up firearms, and usually it the is the fault of the operator or loader instead of the powders fault. Kind like saying dont' ride in a car, because cars are involved in accidents.

I have developed loads with Blue Dot, by doing a little research and then just working up my loads one at a time.

I have picked Blue Dot as it was noted, it does not have as quick of a pressur curve as Unique does. It also has shown me better accuracy and also better consistency when being chronographed. IN fact it has the most consistency of any powder I have ever used, and I have used a lot of them.
It is not position sensitive in the case.

YOu want info or load data on a particular cartridge or cartridges, drop me an email.
Will be more than happy to share it with any fellow shooter, especially another guy from West by God.

Cheers and good shooting
seafire

Thanks for the responses! I guess i should have been more specific. Was interested in loading jacketed as I don't cast my own....yet.
Seafire, I have seen alot of your info. Most covers what I wanted to try, 30-06, 243, 22-250. Thanks.
One I wanted to try was 125-130's for 30-06 using Bluedot.
Thanks again guys, Lots of knowledge at this forum.
Cleo

Unique is one of the best powders to use for reduced loads. As a matter of fact, Unique was originally sold as a rifle powder for reduce loads and is well over 100 years old. Alliant (formerly Hercules) says it has a stash of Unique from the original batch stored under water that it uses today for comparison. Hercules printed a booklet in the 1930's that I have that is nothing but Reduced Rifle loads. It also states that the powder has exceptional stability in that it will not deteriorate, is waterproof, ignites with the greatest of easy, and so on. Kind of interesting in that Hercules booklet also states that they are finding Unique useful in pistols and shotguns as well!

Being the inquisitive type I decided to find out for myself. I searched around for old containers of Unique and have found some that are labeled 'Rifle Powder' from the 1930's. I have found all of the claims to be true in that it is one of the easiest powders to ignite and has never shown to be position sensitive in the case, and I have never found a can of powder that showed any sign of deterioration. According to Alliant, Unique's operating range is 7000psi to 40000psi(only in rifles!). The powder is very fluffy - 30% more than Bluedot. It does indeed burn faster that Bluedot but if you use the Lyman Cast bullet Handbook as a guide you'll be ok. Unique works with jacketed bullets as well as cast lead bullets. Jacketed bullets give lower velocities for a given bullet weight and powder charge but at nearly the same pressure as a cast lead bullet. As a matter of fact a lot of the times you'll find that jacketed bullets have a slightly higher powder charge than Lead bullets. Lead bullets can seal better than jacketed bullets and so pressure rises faster. Suffice to say that jacketed bullets are perfectly safe to use as long as one stays above 1300fps. You really do not want to stick a jacketed bullet in a barrel..trust me.

Based upon my experiments using various cans of Unqiue made from 1930's till present, a given charge weight gives the very same performance, incredible but true. In the late sixties Unique was changed from 40% nitro to 20% nitro. This made the powder less dense which is an advantage for reduced loads. Unique is 30% less dense than Bluedot, has less retardant hence easier to ignite, and yes it is cheaper. Alliant's recent change to clean it up did not change the formulation but rather made the thickness of each grain more consistent so that it burns more consistent for a given energy level.

I like the work the Seafire has done with Bluedot and I believe as long as one stays at the higher loading densities then trouble should be avoided and Bluedot will work fine and dandy. However, I personally would be concerned about using Bluedot at a lower loading densities in big cases in cold weather with jacketed bullets.

While we are on the subject of saftey, I always use a dipper when loading Unique in reduced loads and seat the bullet before going on to the next case. This eliminates the chance of double load which is indeed a very bad thing.

Unique....

good info.

I started playing with Blue Dot as I found it to be even more accurate and less finicky that Unique!

That is not knocking a statement of something tried and true! like Unique.

Blue Dot has also been tried down to some fairly low temps in some fairly low volume in magnum cases. I have tried it down to less than 10% of case volume. It was neither position sensitive in the case, or showed any reduced velocity with higher temps or colder temps.

That is not saying that I would recommend it to be at max capacity listed and left baking on the car dash board all afternoon, as I would not do that even with the "extreme" powders.

I moved to Oregon from Minnesota 10 yrs ago, and I can confess I have not tried it at 30 below zero, which I have hunted in back in Northern Minnesota.

Actually Blue Dot has a wider performance variation in Magnum cases, especially the short magnums than it does in longer cases like the 270 and 30/06.

I only got sold on blue dot after I found it exceeded the tried and proven stuff like Unique.
But I thought it exceeded it by a fair amount for accuracy and consistency.

And by the way welcome to the forum....

cheers and good shooting
seafire

Seafire... what do you own stock in that stuff? Blue Dot is the most dirty burning powder I have ever used.

My last can is '97 vintage . Unless its made to burn cleaner after '97.

I have only used it for 1 1/4 oz duck loads and trap shoot pot loads ,in 12 ga, and blue dot was known to be a very dirty powder. I havent been to the trap range in a year and a half , but its a known fact among pot shooter ,that stuff was the filthyest leavein garbage in the bore, powder.

I switched to longshot when it came out.

It seems that it depends on the working pressure. BD is not so clean in my regular .45 LC loads. From both the .338 WM as well as the .222 it is about as clean as the Alliant or the Vihta rifle powders.

I made the same experience with H110, by the way: There are always unburned powder residues unless you go to the absolute maximum load found in the manuals. Then it burnes completely clean and even produces less smoke, it seemed.

GSP7 -

I find BD very clean buring in my '06 loads. In fact, I'm running a test to see how many rounds I can fire before accuracy goes to pot. I have shot 57 rounds as of last Sunday and the bore is still shiny. By the by, my accuracy load is 22 grs. BD and a 150 gr. Nosler BT seated to 3.33". I have 2, 25 shot groups that measure 1 3/4" CTC @ 100 yds. If I only shoot a 3 shot group, this load is consistently sub MOA.

I've burned a fair bit of unique in a .308, 35 whelen ackley, 350 Rigby, and even my 500 Jeffrey. I find that with cast bullets launched in the 1200-1700 fps range, it is a good powder. Typical accuracy will be 5 shot groups of 1" at 50 yds.

I've just recently tried blue dot in the .308, and I was very suprised how accurate it was, with one 3 shot group of 1/2" at 100 yds. My chrono is dead, but from others data, I'd expect I was pushing jacketed bullets in the 22-2300 fps range.

They are both fine powders for reduced loads, so long as you use them for what they are best for. Unique is excellent for very mild cast loads, an example would be my 350 Rigby, 14 gr of Unique under a 200 gr cast produced 1420 fps, and an es of 20 fps for a 10 shot string.

Blue dot will produce higher velocities, and apparently tighter groups. For light for caliber jacketed bullets @~2400fps, it comes into it's own.

I used to try to do everything with as few powders as possible, but over the years I finally realized that picking up a few more powders really expanded what I could do. The $20 I spent for a pound of blue dot was money well spent, and I have a feeling that pound won't last too long.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GSP7:
Seafire... what do you own stock in that stuff? Blue Dot is the most dirty burning powder I have ever used. [QUOTE]

GSP:

I don't really consider Blue Dot dirty burning powder. However, if a powder is burning dirty, I really don't worry about it much. If it is accurate, then it is accurate.

If it gets my barrel dirty, then I clean the barrel. Sort of like I don't let my toilet get full before I flush it.....same thing with my bore.

I use those Rope Barrel Cleaners a lot in the field. A little oil on it and pull it thru the barrel and cleans it up just fine.

NO, my only stock in blue dot is that it works for what I was asking it to do. SO I share that with the forum members. I have had 100 reports for every one report someone who complains about it in some way. Most guys who complain about it haven't tried it, they are just offended that someone mentioned something worked better than something else that has been around for a long time in that application.

I have found out a lot of cast shooting guys are no strangers to Blue Dot at all. So I am not really pioneering anything at all here.

Heck, If I found out that Rice Crispies shot tight groups with decreased recoil, less barrel wear and heat, I would use it and share the info with the other guys on the forum.

So I do have to ask, is your opinion based on actual use of Blue Dot, and not having good results or just don't like it in your shotgun loads?

As you mentioned you switched to Longshot, when it came out..... Why? Tried it and found it performed better?

Well that is kinda the reason that I have started using Blue Dot over Unique, and some of the other powders.

REcently started playing with SR 4759 and found that to be a great powder for a lot of applications. Still a lot better than Unique.

So If it works, I tend to use it, if It doesn't I tend not to use it. Pretty simple and sounds like you have the same criteria on your standards.

But as always, I appreciate the input of other forum members, pro or con. I have learned a lot from others who though some of my stuff was pure BS. I like to keep my eyes and ears and mind open, because I learned a long time ago, I don't know it all, but I learn more every day.

I have followed some of your other posts, and respect you as a knowledgable guy who I'd be honored to share a campfire with any day.

cheers and good shooting
seafire

Seafire ,, hope you know I was just jokin around with you about owning stock in Blue dot

Ive only used Blue dot for high velosity heavy 12 ga loads. So I havent played around with it like you have.

Sounds like it works good and burns clean in other applications .In a shotgun it leaves quiete abit of residue,kinda like flake ashes in the bore and gets in the action of a shotgun.
But if it works for you in your type uses great.

Longshot ,I first heard about at the trap range a couple years ago. Low pressure ,real high velosity. Guys were useing it for real long shots at the pot($$) shoots. Longshot would shoot some pretty nice flames at night and the wads would rip apart leaving the barrel at high velosity.

Remember its all for fun...

I also use BD in my rifle loads but almost exclusivly with cast bullets. I use surplus 860 .50 cal powder with my jacketed bullet loads in many of my rifles (and cast loads). Sure it's dirty, clean your rifle. Sure it is slow, crank up the sights. I like the fact I use full case loads, it's a standard. When I shoot steel plate matches and need sustained accuracy over 40 shots I duplex my loads with 3-4 grains of 3031 raising the pressure enough and it shoots perfectly clean. It gives me very low recoil for follow up shots (recoil slows down recovery time for the next shot) and is absolutely amazingly accurate in every rifle I shoot it through 3006, 308, 6.5x55, 7.5x55, 8mm, 280. Plus, I paid $24/ 8lb jug!

A lot of the complaining people do over reduced loads is elitism. A man isn't a real man unless he is getting the hell pounded out of him by his rifle. As I said before it's slow so I'll crank up the sights.

nelsonted1 - PM sent

seafire
do you use blue dot in a 6.5 x 55 swed. with 100 gr. bullets? if so what is the max charge and fps.
thanks
Glenn

ps-you have me interested.