As Barry Farber would say "I am nervous as a long tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs" I just re-read my Hodgdon data sheet for Cowboy loads and they call for 4.2gr to 5.1 gr of Clays for a 250gr. Lead bullet. That is about enough to dust the bottom of the case! When that baby is lying down in it's proper position I bet it is not 1/16 in deep! I doubt it reaches the flash hole! They stress not to use kapok or other filler (they always do) Do any of you use this load and live to tell of it? I just don't get it! cowboy loaders just tell me, Yes that is what I load in Clays and Bullseye. Am I paranoid over nothing? I have a pound of clays and Bullseye . Maybe I'll hold them for 9mm. I can fill those LC cases with 2400 and sleep better. Your thoughts, Nervous and twitchy. JB

You're nervous for no reason. Shoot it. It will probably come close to replicating original .45LC velocities. No need to fret about the dreaded "blow-up" thing on this, AS LONG AS YOU DON'T DOUBLE OR TRIPLE CHARGE IT.

I don't use that load but I do load 45-70 w/300 gr Cast and 12 gr of Unique. No problem with that load. A light charge of a slow burner would cause problems (maybe), but I don't think you have anything to worry about with a fast burner, Sean

JB,

I think that powder is way too fast of a burner to worry about. I remember trying Paco's puff loads of 2 or 3 grns of Bullseye in my 30/30. BM

I felt the same way the first time I loaded .45 ACP with Titegroup. It's maybe 1/8 of an inch of powder in the case! But it works fine and in thousands of loads, I never had a problem and the accuracy is great. It burns clean, too. Titegroup specifically states that it is "position insensitive" as far as position of the powder in the case. Does Hodgdon make the same statement about Clays? (I've never used it.)

JBMauser
So what are you shooting these loads out of? Pistol or Rifle? SASS? Try and get your load as close to the 1000 fps limit. loads at 950fps or so are very mild in recoil and you don't have to worry about stickin bullets in the barrel and the are not position sensetive like the lighter loads. Try 7grs of bullseye. should come out of a pistol at around 950+/-!!

[ 08-01-2003, 23:45: Message edited by: Gunnut45/454 ]

Thanks all for the opinions. I will be loading these for my Trapper and cowboy loads. I want to be extra safe and mild as I do not have the hand guns yet and club members have offered to let me use theirs to shoot the match. I have run tests in the trapper - 8 gr. unique = 1111 fps average. 30gr. of 777 shot very well a little below point of aim. 1145 fps. avg. 30 gr. goex FFG at 925 fps avg/ 6.4 Universal clays = 800 fps (low, I need to up the charge - It shot very very mild) The most accurate and most powerful was 18 gr. of 2400 which flew at 1348fps. all with a cast 245gr. RNFP and what looks like blue angel? lube.

Try loading 1.1 Grains of titegroup in a 25 ACP.

Ok now get this. I hit my publication archives and came up with a July 2000 guns and ammo story where Bob Forker is showing how much better the LC shoots with a dacron filler over that little bit of powder. He says powder settled to the rear gave better results than powder settled to the bullet. best was with a filler. This makes little sense as the powder to the rear is going to spray to the bullet with the primer thrust! Buy he had results to support the contention. He lauds Titegroup with it's position insensitivity but said even it did better with a wad of fluff. I have a ton of Kapok so here goes. JB

The load is fine. Most pistol loads use small amounts of fast powder, and no filler is needed. There have been untold millions of rounds of .38 Special/148 wadcutter/2.7 grains of Bullseye and .45 ACP/185 or 200 grain semi-wadcutter/3.5 grains of Bullseye fired by bullseye shooters over the last century. Nobody uses filler, and accuracy is as good as pistol ammunition gets.

Detonation is real and can be demonstrated in the laboratory, but it only affects overbore bottleneck rifle cartridges with a too small charge of slow burning powder, a heavy for bore bullet, and usually considerable erosion of the bore.

Small charges of fast powders in pistol rounds is not likely to cause a problem of too much pressure, but there is one danger of such a miniscule amout. It makes it difficult to detect cases having a double charge by just visual inspection, and the double-charge CAN be a problem!! If your powder-dumping arrangement is foolproof in regard to a possible double charge, then no sweat!!

It has never been a bad practice to load a bulky powder that forbids a double charge..Every pistol I have ever seen blown up was from a double wiff of Bullseye, it has happened many, many times...

I practice this in both pistol and rifle..If the case will hold a double charge of a certain powder then I normally won't use that powder if I can get the same results with a bulkier powder...

I would suggest this practice to everyone who reloads and yes I would rest easier with a case of 2400 as opposed to some bullseye that someone else loaded...In fact I will not shoot someone elses reloads as a rule, or unless I know him very well...

Eldeguello is correct. So is Mr. Atkinson. Beware of other's handloads; you are trusting them with your life (potentially )( Your shooting hand at a minimum). I also will stress that your reloading procedures must be absolutely foolproof to double charging ( idiot proof in my case ).

On another note an alternative to dacron or kapok is vegetable based overpowder wads. Midway shooters supply sells Walter's wads which I have used in 45-70 , 454 casull, 44 mag, 357 mag, 458 win mag. and others. There is discussion pertaining to chamber ringing that you will have research and decide for yourself on. The vegetable wads are supposed to disintegrate immediately upon firing and provide a sort of lubrication as well ( Which I have found to be true in my case anyway). I do know that I have fired "many" reduced velocity loads with them and like them better than dacron, kapok, talc, cream of wheat, corn starch, or any other of the "fillers" I have tried ( yep, tried em all ).
Titewad is a good clean powder, but is more consistant with overpowder wads. XMP-5744 and IMR-SR4759 both show big velocity deviation improvements with overpowder wads in straight cased rifle cases. I shoot 45-70 loads using 300 grain bullets ( cast or copper ) from 600 fps to 2000 fps. Anything below 1,000 fps should be cast lead as pushing a stuck copper jacketed bullet from a bore will give you an education into the mechanics of bullet to bore contact and chamber pressure requirements that will amaze and scare you.

You see; I am in love with reduced velocity loads for practice shooting. Gets the mechanics of repetition without the undesireable recoil induced bad habits. This is the main reason I reload for my hunting guns. When in the field you never "feel" the recoil until it's over and you think back through it after the fact. Ask any of the PH's and everyone of them will tell you "Get familiar with shooting your rifle to where it is almost instinct". The best way to do this is to go through the repetitive learning process with reduced loads to get the mind / muscle memory and at the same time show the accuracy of the shot; But; without the recoil induced bad habits picked up if you fired that many rounds with full house loads. IE flinching; magnum headache; bruising; higher fatigue on expensive equipment; etc.

I am sorry I rambled on. Please excuse. I just love shooting reduced loads.

[ 08-03-2003, 05:20: Message edited by: Old & Slow ]

I believe ringed chambers/barrels come about by not using enough filler, at least every case I know of was decided to have been caused by that.

I use Dacron in my double rifle...some use foam but I can't find the right kind, that grey/black packing stuff that is stiffer than regular foam. The regular foam, I don't think gives enough compresstion...but when you live in Idaho, you just have to make do with whats available...

quote:
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Originally posted by KLN:
Detonation is real and can be demonstrated in the laboratory, but it only affects overbore bottleneck rifle cartridges with a too small charge of slow burning powder, a heavy for bore bullet, and usually considerable erosion of the bore.
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Is this inforamtiin available on the net? I would like to see it, i have yet to see where anyone could prove this threory....

MSSMagnum:

The problem with the net is that are are a lot of opinions expressed by the undereducated, and it is difficult to draw a valid conclusion from that kind of information.

The best explanation I have seen is in P. O. Ackley's "Handbook for Shooters and Reloaders". If memory serves, there has been some discussion in "Handloader" magazine as well. You will also notice that most loading manuals warn against reduced charges of slow burning powders, though usually without mentioning the other parts of the equation necessary for a detonation.

The Navy long ago proved the concept in the laboratory. So did Mr. Ackley, in an informal way. I think the contribution of eroded throats to the phenomenon has been discovered since the publication of Mr. Ackley's book.

Ray Atkinson indicated in a post about the .243 that he has knowledge of the phenomenon, specifically with eroded throats.

Incidentally, there have been allegations over the years that the .38 Special load mentioned above has on rare occasion detonated. It turns out that the problem was double charges of Bullseye, caused by an unusual characteristic of the Star reloading machines in widespread use years ago. This information was also published in "Handloader" magazine, if memory serves.

Detonations with small loads of slow burning powders in large bottle neck cases causing double detonations is a reality and as excepted as white bread among the powder producing companies..HP White (American Rifleman) did a study on this many years ago..Wish I could tell you the issue etc. but I cannot....You could probably get that information from bullet or powder companies...along with the 243 phenominum as it was also written up in various magazines on more than one ocassion and several mentions from time to time...

Also there seems to be some instances wherein IMR 4831 has trashed some double rifles...Apparantly it burns longer down the barrels taking its pressure curve with it to the thinner part of the tapered barrels and blowing a hole in the area just beyond the forend. I have not been able to varify this, but I did varify two instances wherein this phenomina occured but inspection told me the guy was pushing the bullets at 2300 FPS....well duh! Makes one wonder if more of these things could be human error...

I don't know the answers and am just passing on what I have read and the source from which it came...

I've read of a few cases of revolver blowup traceable to 296/H-110. That's the reason for the dire warnings on reduced loads using those powders.

The most plausible explanation is that the cause is slight hangfires. The primer is sufficient to lodge the bullet in the barrel cone before the main charge ignites. Pressure then builds to the blowup point before the bullet can get moving again.

I can't prove this, but I'm a lot happier not having proved it.

I'VE USED 3GRS BULLSEYE IN MY LIGHT LOADED .357 MAG LOADS FOR YRS WITH NO PROBLEMS. THEY SEEM TO WORK FINE.

THE 2ND AMENDMENT PROTECTS US ALL...........

148gr HBWC over 2.7gr Bullseye in my Smith M-52. Just enough to operate the slide Bob

Detonation that will destroy a firearm as indicated by Ray Atkinson, has happened in cases with very light charges of H 4831 and H 4350.

Parker Ackley did some articles on this and also included some of this in his books. He did testing and was not able to blow up a firearm. The Speer lab also did some testing way back in the 1960s on this.

Light loads with slower powders is not a problem. In fact Blue Dot is my powder of choice in a 223, for economy, accuracy and minimal deviation spread. I only use 12.5 grains. I also load a 444 with 15 to 20 grains of Blue Dot alot.

It has only happened with some of the real slow powders, and 4831 and 4350 being the only two I have seen listed. It not being able to be duplicated in a lab consistently, is sort of like the fire retardent that was used back in the 1970s. Lay it down and you could not get it to catch fire no matter what. Sit in on its side and it burned like a torch.

No One has come up with the reason, and it is not consistent. However there is tons of safe loads out there, so use one of those.