#1...most of my rifle dies are redding, the competition seating dies all are. why? because they cost more, so the mind set is that they work better. but do they? i am in the market for some 7 mm mag dies, and will either get forster or redding. forster cost less but i see dam good reviews on em. i use FL dies and take out the expander and use the sinclair expander mandrels on the necks instead. use a co-ax press. so..is more expensive better?
#2...i firmly believe that case uniformity(concentricity) inside the neck effects accuracy more than anything else (using good reloading practices in the other steps) so i use nosler or lapua brass. again, am i paying for a name or a result? yes i could measure every case prior to filling it up, but before i start that i want a good brass to begin with. thoughts? thanks

Lapau brass is regarded as the best along with Norma brass. Nosler has a long consistency in accuracy and is excellent hunter and target bullets. I personally prefer Nosler Accubonds and Hornady Interbonds. Still need to run tests on the Nosler E-tips.

I am not a benchrester but I am anal about my loading practices. I have Redding and RCBS dies for the most part. I find little difference in the results of either. As far as brass, I use Remington for the majority of my loading and find the results more than satisfactory.
I load the following:
220 Swift Varmint weight
22-250 Varmintweight
243 Win Varmint weight
250/3000 Sporter weight
250 AI Varmint weight
250 AI Sporter weight
25/06 Varmint weight
26/06 Sporter weight
257 Roberts Sporter weight
All are sub MOA and seven of the nine are Savage/Stevens.
IMHO brand loyalty is a good thing for whatever reason if it works.
GOOD LUCK and GOOD SHOOTING!!!

1. Cost is not the sole determinant of value, but it is a consideration. Try the better brands; you probably won't see the difference when shooting <600-yards, if then. Avoid budget brands as you get what you pay for.

2. Winchester brass always gets good reviews. Remington not so much. Hornady: never.

Once again, price is not the sole determinant; weighing and uniforming brass for super-accurate shooting (e.g. Bench-rest and at >600-yards) is more important than spending ridiculous amounts for top-shelf brass.

quote:

Originally posted by john c.:
#1...most of my rifle dies are redding, the competition seating dies all are. why? because they cost more, so the mind set is that they work better. but do they? i am in the market for some 7 mm mag dies, and will either get forster or redding. forster cost less but i see dam good reviews on em. i use FL dies and take out the expander and use the sinclair expander mandrels on the necks instead. use a co-ax press. so..is more expensive better?

Idaknow, but I think one should ask if economizing really saves. Does buying a Hornady L&L really save one money when compared to a Co-Ax? I chose the Co-Ax over others because it's silky smooth and easy on the hand/wrist while in use, and I chose Dillon (progressive) for the same reasons. Both have served me well and both have produced gobs of ammo.

I had brand loyalty to Federal brass for decades, but the product as of late (maybe the last 10 years) has been lacking in quality and oversize primer pockets are the order of the day. Why that is so is anyone's guess. (FWIW, I believe Federal still makes the most consistent primers available.)

The majority of my dies are RCBS, but I count on Redding and Forster to make my varmint/target rifles shine. Do they do a better job? I think so judging from target results, but this much is fact: they definitely are easier to adjust &/or fine tune.

And case trimmers- I have Lyman, RCBS and Wilson. The Wilson is my clear favorite, but not the trimmer of choice where volume is concerned ...wish I would have purchased a Giraud years ago!

My point is that if it's difficult to adjust/use, it will sit on the reloading bench gathering dust and save one nothing.

i agree, i own a dillon 650 because my LNL was crap. but the question remains, is redding a better die than forster using the yardstick of you get what you pay for.

A person tends to go with what he knows. I am partial to CCI primers and Rem brass mainly 'cause when I started reloading, that was what the little gun shop where I traded stocked.
Considering that a die is gonna last you a couple of lifetimes, the extra cost, when spread out over a couple of decades, doesn't amount to much. Same deal with most of the reloading eq we buy. If you can afford it, go with the highest priced items. They may not do a better job but the warm, fuzzy feeling you'll get might be worth it. And too, if you think they make you a better marksman, they probably do.
Sad but true however, is the lower priced spread often butters your bread just as well as the primo stuff. One of the things lacking is you can't assume a holier than thou attitude and make comments about how your standards are obviously superior to the lesser folks.

how in the HELL did you ever get the idea that my attitude is that i am superior to anyone else??? you been smoking crack? cause you obviously got ur head stuk up urs!! i simply want to know if a redding die is better than a forster, based on price! and going with a higher priced item because it gives you a "warm fuzzy feeling" DOES make me feel superior to anyone that feels that way. by any chance, are you an accountant?

Hi John,

Looking at your registered date I see you've only been here for a couple of months, whereas Wasbeeman has been around for a few years now.

So I suspect you are taking personally a generic comment that is unfortunately true on occasion, where for lack of a less tactful way to say it, a person can spend way more money than needed on an item whether it be a firearm, optics, or reloading components and equipment for what appears the exclusive reason being they can then behave like an ass to anyone who spends less than their somewhat arbitrary benchmark.

Anyway, as I mentioned I do not see his comment as being an attack on you but if I am wrong I'm sure he'll straighten me out here in public.

so.....ur saying that on THIS site, tenure = hierarchy? so at what point does knowledge = decorum kick in?

I will also try to answer some of OP's questions.

1. Does higher price = better quality? Generally, yes. A higher price gives the maker more money to spend on constant QC. More QC means you are less likely to ever get the results of a manufacturing mistake or a worker's poor effort shipped to you.

2. I don't see anything in wasbeeman's post that was intended to ruffle your feathers. I think he was simply pointing out that the placebo effect applies to shooting & reloading as well as almost everything else in human life. I.e., if you think something will make you do better, it usually will.

My advise is to buy the best you feel you actually need, and to be calm here on AR. After a while you will get used to the different personalities, and will reach a subconscious conclusion as to whether it is a site that suits your wishes.

If it does, welcome to the group. If it doesn't, well, we'll miss you but we & you both will survive.

The guys here are a good source of knowledge, AND friendship. But like any friendship, we don't like our friends just because of what they give us when we ask for something. We actually like them because we learn their hearts and accept their faults. We all have both, friends and faults.

And when one asks a question here, he doesn't control what he gets by way of answers. That goes with the territory. We are co-conspiritors in this game of shooting life, not master/slaves.

And that wasn't intended to be an insult either. Master/slave is an employment term, not a personal value judgement.

Anyway, best wishes for now and the future. Hope you decide to stay with us.

ok, having owned and operated gun stores WAY in the past in a different life, i understand the idea of percieved value, cost versus returns, risk and return, you can't get something for nothing etc etc . but all i wanted to know was...IN THE OPINION OF SOMEONE WHO HAS OWNED AND USED BOTH, IS A REDDING DIE BETTER THAN A FORSTER DIE, IS IT WORTH THE EXTRA $$$ THEY CHARGE FOR IT. i don't know how to make it more simple than that. so, i give up. i'm sorry my post count doesn't warrant a straight, non-judgemental answer, so why don't we just delete the whole thing and i'll try and figure out a different way to ask/explain it. thanks anyway.

I can answer your question with my example.
I purchased a set of redding .243AI dies.
When I resized and loaded my lapua brass I has .007 too .010 runout. I messed around with 50 or so case and did not get very good results "coustom dies and a custom barrel".
Well I called redding and "they" the tech I talked to, wanted 5 rounds that were fired in the rifle and the set of dies. I sent them to redding and in about 2-3 week they came back.
The letter I received stated that they did not gurantee there CUSTOM MADE ACKLEY DIE TO NO LESS THAN .003 AND GENERALLY THEY RAN OUT .005
So I can safely state that the $120 set of dies I purchased are no better than the lee die that I payed $10 for and the collet dies I use have less than .001 runout.
I lost interest in redding after that.
rcbs has a lifetime gurantee and really think they stick behind there products. I damaged a die one and sent it back for repair they sent me a new die at no charge and appoigized for the scratch.
Dave

good solid infor. thanks

John---Wasbeeman is good troops. Don't feel bad because I am so anal about loading my rifles both sporters and competition that dies are made from the chambering reamers.

Different strokes for different folks as they say.

quote:

Originally posted by john c.:
so.....ur saying that on THIS site, tenure = hierarchy? so at what point does knowledge = decorum kick in?

No, actually what I was trying to do was give you an out for you to save some face with. If a new person shows up at a discussion and in the first couple of conversations he has with strangers he gets the notion they are disparaging him when they don't know him from Adam, the person being judgemental is usually not the regular.

Knowledge equalling decorum usually has little to do with it. Often the more knowledgeable a person is the more tolerant of others they are, including perceived slights.

quote:

Originally posted by hivelosity:
I can answer your question with my example.
I purchased a set of redding .243AI dies.
When I resized and loaded my lapua brass I has .007 too .010 runout. I messed around with 50 or so case and did not get very good results "coustom dies and a custom barrel".
Well I called redding and "they" the tech I talked to, wanted 5 rounds that were fired in the rifle and the set of dies. I sent them to redding and in about 2-3 week they came back.
The letter I received stated that they did not gurantee there CUSTOM MADE ACKLEY DIE TO NO LESS THAN .003 AND GENERALLY THEY RAN OUT .005
So I can safely state that the $120 set of dies I purchased are no better than the lee die that I payed $10 for and the collet dies I use have less than .001 runout.
I lost interest in redding after that.
rcbs has a lifetime gurantee and really think they stick behind there products. I damaged a die one and sent it back for repair they sent me a new die at no charge and appoigized for the scratch.
Dave

I use the Redding type S FL sizing die for the 243AI and a Wilson seater and my Laupa brass runout is .001 to .0005 loaded rd. Thats about the variation in neck thickness so that's not bad.

Hi, Tom The die I have is a FL resize die. It was pre S dies and bushing design.
I should have made that connection in the statement.
i also have several other sets of redding dies that were used and they are all ok no great just ok.
I really thought they would have done something about the die but the did not. Iam over it now and moving on.
Dave

quote:

No, actually what I was trying to do was give you an out for you to save some face with.

believe me, i have no desire nor need to "save face". i supervise 60 employees and over 2,000 guests of the state. 14 hours a day. in 2011 i took 4 days off. point being i am a big boy and can take my lumps. i need infor. not friends. that being said, i don't wish to be confrontational. but i can be. having "buddys" online is fine and a good stress reliever. but not a necessity of life. so while i appreciate your desire to save me from myself (and i probably need it) i can take care of myself. maybe. i think. i hope. i have so far.

Back to Forster vs. Redding dies....though Reddings are the Darlings of many folks for the last few years, I prefer Forster, Bonanza, whatever name they are sold under these days. I have had less than success with getting Redding to provide good warranty service on the last die set I bought from them. So, it is now the LAST die set I will buy from them for a while...maybe a long while.


That doesn't mean they are a bad company. Or that they make bad dies. What it means is that experiences differ and, to the extent they do, the truth about them varies with the viewer, as with everything else.

E.G., which was the better car? The Buick, or the Oldsmobile? Well, must be the Buick, huh? enough people bought them that the Olds was the GM brand that got dumped between those two in-house competitiors. Maybe, but in my book I much preferred Oldsmobiles because of their interest in racing.

Again, no right, no wrong, just different opinions.


BTW, none of us here are cons. So here you are likely to get more and better information if you come over in a friendly way. And many of us have had far more than 60 employees, so that is not going to impress the mobs either.

You MAY be able to take care of yourself, but as some famous man once said, "No man is an island...."

quote:

Originally posted by john c.:

quote:

No, actually what I was trying to do was give you an out for you to save some face with.

believe me, i have no desire nor need to "save face". i supervise 60 employees and over 2,000 guests of the state. 14 hours a day. in 2011 i took 4 days off. point being i am a big boy and can take my lumps. i need infor. not friends. that being said, i don't wish to be confrontational. but i can be. having "buddys" online is fine and a good stress reliever. but not a necessity of life. so while i appreciate your desire to save me from myself (and i probably need it) i can take care of myself. maybe. i think. i hope. i have so far.

Bad attitude, Wally.

quote:

Originally posted by john c.:

quote:

No, actually what I was trying to do was give you an out for you to save some face with.

believe me, i have no desire nor need to "save face". i supervise 60 employees and over 2,000 guests of the state. 14 hours a day. in 2011 i took 4 days off. point being i am a big boy and can take my lumps. i need infor. not friends. that being said, i don't wish to be confrontational. but i can be. having "buddys" online is fine and a good stress reliever. but not a necessity of life. so while i appreciate your desire to save me from myself (and i probably need it) i can take care of myself. maybe. i think. i hope. i have so far.

You tag line pretty well sez it all. If you do indeed have 60 employees and interact with thousands of "guest of the state", I would imagine you have one helluva turnover. As I cannot imagine being desperate enough to work for a dickhead like you.
Tell you what, have someone that is reasonably literate read my post to you. Maybe help you with some of the big words. And then come back and tell me how my post can be construded to be an attack on you. 'Cause Mr Doesn't play well with others, you ain't seen nothing yet.

well ur right about one thing. you wouldn't work for a dickhead like me cause you couldn't hack working for me. i ain't seen nothing yet? i see wannabes like you all day. only i see em face to face, not behind a computer screen. so now that you have properly intimidated me, lets call a truce and get over it. or not.

quote:

BTW, none of us here are cons. So here you are likely to get more and better information if you come over in a friendly way. And many of us have had far more than 60 employees, so that is not going to impress the mobs either.

wasn't trying to impress, just inform. but i DO appreciate your opinion of redding. probably just made up my mind for me. thanks.

quote:

Bad attitude, Wally.

yep. working on it. no guarantees.

quote:

Originally posted by john c.:
well ur right about one thing. you wouldn't work for a dickhead like me cause you couldn't hack working for me. i ain't seen nothing yet? i see wannabes like you all day. only i see em face to face, not behind a computer screen. so now that you have properly intimidated me, lets call a truce and get over it. or not.

Gee, you're not only anti-social, you're stupid too. You know nothing about my skill sets nor work ethics but your posts tells volumes about you. First off, you apparently need to brush up on you skill sets and work ethics since you (say you) have to work 24/7 to earn a living. Pretty pitiful. Maybe Obama has a program or entitlement for you. Also liked your pitiful attempt of turning me into the bad person.
As far as a truce??? Not. Just put me on ignore and if I run acrost another of your silly posts, I'll ignore it. That is as long as you're around. We've got a lot of knowledgable folks in here with a wealth of information to share. But they do not long suffer a fool, so I'll say adios in advance.

It’s interesting how things can degenerate into a pissing contest.

Back to the original question- Price doesn't mean anything if the warranty is no good. Sounds like you got your answer. Most of my stuff is green because if I ever have a problem, they fix it. Same reason most of my scopes are Leupold.

Communication seems to have become an art. It seems awful easy to step on toes.

John C. you asked for opinions and your're getting them. It's what you asked for, and nobody is going to like everything they hear. Your question was a bit more convoluted to start with and the result was a mess.

To answer your question, I think what is used to make your ammo is of a very small consiquence. To prove my point, ammo loaded with a Lee Loader held the World Record for quite a few years and the kit can still be had for less than $30. Nate

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:

quote:

Originally posted by john c.:
well ur right about one thing. you wouldn't work for a dickhead like me cause you couldn't hack working for me. i ain't seen nothing yet? i see wannabes like you all day. only i see em face to face, not behind a computer screen. so now that you have properly intimidated me, lets call a truce and get over it. or not.

Gee, you're not only anti-social, you're stupid too. You know nothing about my skill sets nor work ethics but your posts tells volumes about you. First off, you apparently need to brush up on you skill sets and work ethics since you (say you) have to work 24/7 to earn a living. Pretty pitiful. Maybe Obama has a program or entitlement for you. Also liked your pitiful attempt of turning me into the bad person.
As far as a truce??? Not. Just put me on ignore and if I run acrost another of your silly posts, I'll ignore it. That is as long as you're around. We've got a lot of knowledgable folks in here with a wealth of information to share. But they do not long suffer a fool, so I'll say adios in advance.

ok, but thats ur decision, not mine. you change ur mind lemme know. cya!

quote:

Originally posted by BigNate:
Communication seems to have become an art. It seems awful easy to step on toes.

John C. you asked for opinions and your're getting them. It's what you asked for, and nobody is going to like everything they hear. Your question was a bit more convoluted to start with and the result was a mess.

To answer your question, I think what is used to make your ammo is of a very small consiquence. To prove my point, ammo loaded with a Lee Loader held the World Record for quite a few years and the kit can still be had for less than $30. Nate

i started loading back in the mid 60's w/the green stuff and a spring loaded bullet seater was not around then. the advertising/theory/ whatever that it seats the bullets straighter (more concentric) on the surface seems to make sense that it would contribute to accuracy. you state that what is used to load the ammo with (machinery) makes little difference. ok. but if the rifle is set up properly ie: scope, bedding, trigger, bbl. etc wouldn't a bullet seated straight(er) in the case neck be more accurate than not? and would't a more advanced seater such as a redding or forster competetion die do that? and just for the record, i'm ASKING, not stating.

quote:

Originally posted by john c.:
i started loading back in the mid 60's w/the green stuff and a spring loaded bullet seater was not around then. the advertising/theory/ whatever that it seats the bullets straighter (more concentric) on the surface seems to make sense that it would contribute to accuracy. you state that what is used to load the ammo with (machinery) makes little difference. ok. but if the rifle is set up properly ie: scope, bedding, trigger, bbl. etc wouldn't a bullet seated straight(er) in the case neck be more accurate than not? and would't a more advanced seater such as a redding or forster competetion die do that? and just for the record, i'm ASKING, not stating.

First Q: answer probably to some degree.
Second: Yes

There is so much that contributes that IMHO the tools used have minimal effect as compared to things regarding the gun first and then the sighting equipment, if everything there is perfect then the only thing left to mess with is the ammo. If the barrel is perfect, the chamber is square to the bore, the bolt face and action square and true, and all sighting equipment perfect, then we move into the type of concerns you are voicing.

I'm not an expert but have been reloading quite a while and paying attention to others and my thoughts are certainly up for debate.

Here goes,
1. you need to be able to measure the runout of your loaded ammo. It is the only way to be certain you are truely compareing the results of using different equipment.
2. You need a tight neck chambered rifle so that you can turn necks to match it closely. This is the only way to be sure of consistancy of neck runout and it may affect neck tension to some degree.
3. cases need to be weighed, sorted, trimmed, flashhole needs to be consistant, and I'm sure I'm leaving out more. Benchrest shooters will be a resource to gleen what you are asking for.

What I'm getting at is without doing everything else involved, how can you be sure the bullet seating difference from one die to another is having an effect? Nate

i agree. i check runout w/a NECO from the 90's and adjust accordingly. i HAVE noticed a diff. in groups when i do this. i used to turn necks but never did notice it made a diff. in grouping. using an expander mandrel in place of the sizing dies expander button and using a competeton seating from redding (in my .30 cals) is my next step in the "who knows lets try it" phase. thus the original question, which brand works better. thanks for the input.

Answering the original question. In my experience No. I have or have owned my share of die sets from many different makers and when I find a resizer die that has less than .003 runout and a seater die that has less than .003 I keep them, regardless of brand or cost. I am not loading for competition- just hunting. Some of the least runout of any of the dies from a production die company come from Lee Collet dies, problem is they are not available for all calibers and I have had some issues with the the variations in mil surplus brass in 223. Warrany service is paramount and all the "name" brands have been good to deal with for me when there have been issues.

www.duaneguns.com

John -- First you are not going to get much help here by being ugly period.

Stone Cold Fact----I have forgotten more about precision reloading than you will ever know and use tools and equipment as others here do that you have no idea what they even are.

You are about to piss me off and that is not a good thing.

You have just been plain nasty to people that can help you so I wish you luck on your quest for information. I am just going to sit and watch you continue to struggle.

This is not a collection of inmates here---believe it or not many here have knowledge, skills, experience as well as the skins on the wall from competing or building rifles that are just going to shake their collective heads and remain silent. It is you that have paved a destiny straight here that leads straight into a brick wall.

If I missed anything someone will add to this I am sure. Am on my way to the SCI Show to look at my new rifle that my Smith brought down. Will have to catch up later.

quote:

Originally posted by Boss Hoss:
John -- First you are not going to get much help here by being ugly period.

Stone Cold Fact----I have forgotten more about precision reloading than you will ever know and use tools and equipment as others here do that you have no idea what they even are.

You are about to piss me off and that is not a good thing.

You have just been plain nasty to people that can help you so I wish you luck on your quest for information. I am just going to sit and watch you continue to struggle.

This is not a collection of inmates here---believe it or not many here have knowledge, skills, experience as well as the skins on the wall from competing or building rifles that are just going to shake their collective heads and remain silent. It is you that have paved a destiny straight here that leads straight into a brick wall.

If I missed anything someone will add to this I am sure. Am on my way to the SCI Show to look at my new rifle that my Smith brought down. Will have to catch up later.

damn! and here i thought my "struggling" days were over with. as far as pissing you off? i cut a fart this morning that meant more to me than you being pissed off. but if being pissed off turns ur crank...crank on. i'm sure ur threats will impress SOMEBODY.

quote:

Originally posted by DuaneinND:
Answering the original question. In my experience No. I have or have owned my share of die sets from many different makers and when I find a resizer die that has less than .003 runout and a seater die that has less than .003 I keep them, regardless of brand or cost. I am not loading for competition- just hunting. Some of the least runout of any of the dies from a production die company come from Lee Collet dies, problem is they are not available for all calibers and I have had some issues with the the variations in mil surplus brass in 223. Warrany service is paramount and all the "name" brands have been good to deal with for me when there have been issues.

www.duaneguns.com

makes sense!

CAN WE START OVER ???????

i recently self demoted at work and i CAN'T BELIEVE what a difference it makes stress wise to be just one of the guys instead of a target for the administration. ANYWAY... i realize i rubbed a few of you the wrong way. wasn't intentional but happened none the less. so... there it is. thanks

My opinion of seating the bullet straight.

1. You have to size the case straight. The neck cannot be off center or crooked. The case cannot be banana shaped or have the body out of square with the base (face of the case head). Precision shooters get around this by not sizing the case body.

2. Do not size the neck smaller than necessary.
When it is sized undersize it will have a tendency to squeeze down off center. If it is expanded then the expander may pull it back off center. Benchrest shooters use minimum size chambers and turned case necks. They may not size the case neck at all. If they do size it it may only be .001.

3. Now that you have your case sized nice and straight it is a really good thing to seat the bullet straight. You may be able to seat the bullet straight with any old seater if you are careful. Probability of getting the bullet really straight depends the probability of the die being concentric in all respects.

4. I think the innards of a Redding die promote getting the bullet straight. However the external 7/8 -14 threads are often ratty.
The Redding die is exceptionally easy to adjust.

5. The Forster Ultra seater is both easy to adjust and it has superior internal alignment
I think the external threads are cleaner and align better than the Redding threads.

5. The Forster standard BR seater is also a precision seater but slower to adjust. It is available in a wide range of calibers and some can be modified to work with other cartridges.

The value of any of these seaters is subjective.
It is entirely possible that an ordinary seater in many cases will produce results that cannot be distinguished from one of the two seaters above.

There are other seaters such as those made by Wilson, Hart and many bench rest gunsmiths and tool makers. These seaters will seat a bullet straight and are used by the benchrest competitors along with tight chambers and turned necks.

The value of any of this may rest in the actual results you get. Those results may be more affected by your chamber, your sizing techniques, and other loading techniques.

Yeah I like the BR seaters and the seaters made by both Redding and Forster. I acquire them when I find them at bargain prices. For the most part I can make other seaters work well also. As I said before I find a lot of the success begins with understanding chambers, brass fit, and sizing techniques. Almost anyone can seat a bullet straight in a straight case.

wow, lots of good infor. have to go to work now but will sift thru it later. thanks