Any of you experiment with quiet loads for .308? "Cats Sneeze" loads? I'm relatively new to reloading and want to try something new, now that I've got some "working loads" that I like. I've got a ".30-30" level load that shoots to the same POA at 100 yards as my "full-power load" does at 200 yards. No need to adjust the scope. Now I'm looking for a quiet load that I might be able to tune to the same POA at 25 yards.

The threads I've read so far talk about the virtue of seating the bullet really deep, in straight-walled cartridges. Can't do that with a bottlenecked cartridge.

I read other threads about the virtue of using lead bullets. Less friction. Some have used .32 lead bullets or buckshot. BUT heavier bullets are better. More energy at lower velocity. But its not easy to source heavy lead bullets for .308, particularly in small quantities. And I can't cast. And I do have some 150gr jacketed bullets that I'd like to use up...

They say faster pistol powders are best because pressure peaks fast and then falls in the longer barrel, reducing the "pop" of escaping gasses.

I also assume I'd need to use wadding or filler to keep the small charge of powder near the primer.

So my questions are:

1) Would I get in trouble using heavy, jacketed bullets at lower velocities?

2) Do I have to use dacron for wadding, or could I use cheap ol' toilet tissue? I read a thread that says its OK--the stuff basically disintegrates and doesn't leave a flammable residue. Or can I use Cream of Wheat or some other filler?

3) Would Unique powder be a good one to experiment with? I'm thinking of starting with 9mm-type loads and going up or down from there. (Yes, I know to check for bullet in the bore after each shot).

Any other thoughts? Any links to past threads that I should review? I've tried the search function for things like "cat's sneeze" and "quiet load" but I get zillions of hits, what with all the cat discussions on the small game forum, etc.

First, what is your proposed use for these loads? Small game loads don't need a lot of energy with the bigger bullets...

Now, let me share an experience I've had.

Last fall I worked up a load of 2.5 gr. Unique in .38 Special cases under a 205 gr. bullet. This was to be used in a .357 Maximum rifle for small game. It would group into 1-1.5 inches and about 2 inches low of point of aim at 50 yards (sights set for the full-throttle deer load). At 25 yards they were spot on. I could see using these for a wide variety of small game including ground hogs, fox and "others" of that size. I loaded 50 to have to use and tested part of that batch to make certain I had it right. All was well. However, I had never chronographed that load. I did use one round to take one squirrel (on the ground).

Well, today I took it with me when I went shooting the Max (testing Lil'Gun loads). VERY disappointing! What happened! Well today (temp 59 degrees, similar to when I worked up the load) velocities went from 83 fps (yes, not a typo) to 340 fps. Most were striking 2 feet low at 50 yards (but 3 were spot on! ). These loads were useless today.

About midway through the test it occurred to me that they had been stored bullet down in the box and maybe the powder was not next to the primer. All following rounds (18) were given a sharp (but safe) rap on the bench before firing and the rifle barrel was elevated immediately before firing. Little if any improvement. Indeed, I did get a good group, just 2 feet too low! The 3 that were right on were from the first 22 rounds...

Now don't get discouraged. In your case, a 115-140 gr. bullet with about 8 gr. of Red Dot will do the trick. It won't be silent but it will be useful. However, this little exercise points out the possible pitfalls that await experimentation.

Yup. Small game loads. I know heavy bullets aren't required for small game loads, but you can never have too much energy.

Besides, I want to use up these 150gr jacketed bullets...

Sounds like you were thinking the same as me--spot on at 25 yards with sights set for your full-power loads.

Thanks for warning me about potential pitfalls. But hey, half the fun of reloading is experimenting, right?

I have been experimenting for years in making guns quiet.



The best bet with the .308 is to get a 32acp to .308 chamber adapter from

http://www.alexcartridge.com/

For $20 pp



The load is 1 gr of Bullseye or Red Dot or Unique convered with two poly wads cut with the 32acp case mouth. Chamfer the case mouth outside until sharp, so it cuts well. Push a .315" soft lead ball into the case so the wads push on the powder and the lead ball is down inside the case 1/4". Try to compress the powder, while keeping the bullet in good enough shape to engage the rifling.





Adjust the powder charge in .1 increments.

There will be a sharp threshold from a three sound report to a one sound report, from click [firing pin], bang [muzzle report], clang [target being struck] to a single, BLAMMMMM!!!

That threshold is when muzzle pressure is ~ 2 atmospheres and goes super sonic when released. The bullet will be way sub sonic, but the gas must be kept barely sub sonic.



Adjust the powder charge to the most possible while keeping the pellet gun sound. The longer the barrel, the higher the possible charge. The idea is to compress the powder and have a long barrel to get as much expansion ratio as possible for the max velocity with no more than 2 atmospheres of muzzle pressure.



This load sounds like a pellet gun, and goes through an inch of wood.

DaveR,

I have loaded 110 gr cast lead bullets (for the M-1 carbine) from Kead Bullets with 5 gr Bullseye in a .30-06. This was after I got a 150 gr jacketed bullet stuck in the bore and had to remove it. Jacketed bullets are never suitable for "cat sneeze" loads! Even as low as that 5 gr load was, it still made a pretty good bit of noise. Certainly more than a cat's sneeze! It was relatively accurate at 25 yards, but it was pretty miserable at 50 yards.

One of the best series of articles on "cat sneeze" loads is found here (How To Handload Subsonic Rifle Cartridges (and survive)). A truly silent load is only possible with a supressor and supressors are legal in Finland, where the articles originate. There is also an article (Silence Is Golden) from C.E. (Ed) Harris, of Ed's Red fame, on that site about low noise loads.

I think you will find Blue Dot loads to be a better use for the 150 gr jacketed bullets. 21.0 gr will put 150 gr surplus .308 bullets in 1 1/2" at 100 yards when loaded in a .30-06. That's 40% of the total Blue Dot capacity in the .30-06.

Thanks, Clark and Paul. Good info. I would not have thought of a .32acp adapter.

And the .30 carbine bullet with a few gr. of Bullseye sounds interesting. I wish Ed had specified whether he used wadding in his bottlneck cartridges. Paul, did you use wadding in your .30-06 with the Bullseye load?

Dave,

No, I didn't use any wadding. I have used the polyester/"cotton" that comes out of pill bottles for fire forming brass, but it isn't needed in these subsonic loads.

I urge extreme caution and encourage heeding P.T. Kekkonen's advice on very small charges of fast powder. He claims to have seen a couple of .308's destroyed by very small loads of Bullseye.

I would also urge you to use lubrication in your barrel, even with lubricated lead bullets. That seems to be one of the contributing factors for sucess in these subsonics.

Hobie is right about .38 Special loads in a rifle. They are certainly subsonic and have a very light report. I haven't tried light wadcutter loads yet, but will when time permits.

IME, jacketed bullets are not generally satisfactory. Different reasons in different guns but generally unsatisfactory. They have to move at least so fast (consistently) to be safe.



Let us know what you discover.



OOPS, I didn't see Paul's answer.

The past couple of summers,I have shot quite a bit with reduced loads in my .30 HLS Cheapskate,which is comparable to the .30 Herrett.

In it,I discovered,Green Dot to be the best for reduced loads.I also believe magnum primers work best with the lighter reduced loads.

With 4 grs. of Green Dot,magnum large rifle primers,and 110 gr.jacketed bullets,I was able to shoot 4 shot groups of 1/8-3/16 of an in. at 40 ft. from a bench with the scope set at 3 power.

Green Dot is very insensitive to position in this case,no fillers or wads were used.

Groups were fired using 110 gr. jacketed RN,150 gr.jacketed RN,100 gr. cast ww bullets sized .313,and .315 RB.

Powder charges varied from 2-8 grs.with the different bullets using LR,LP,and LR Magnum primers.

I would like to try it with cast bullets weighing from 170-210 gr. cast but at the present I dont have the moulds.

None of the loads were as quiet as I had hoped.

WC

I have used 110 vmax and bullseye with a filler but it was about as loud as a .22 mag. I dont recall the load but it generate about 930fps and was pretty consistent as long as the filler was used. The bullet showed signs of expansion but would not breakup at this speed. It has claimed one coyote from a backyard balcony and did not exit on a head shot.

Dave R,

I've done quite a bit of work with "reduced" loads in the .308 Win. and other cartridges.

If, you want a "cat sneeze" cartridge, I would recommend you try 4 gr. of Bullseye with one pellet of 0 Buck (.32" dia. pellet) and standard primers. DO NOT USE ANY TYPE OF FILLER.

This load is adequate for short range plinking (25m) and gives about 1100 fps.

If you are looking for more power and willing to accept a bit more noise, let me know. I have other suggestions.... but they are NOT "cat sneeze" loads. They are more "gallery type" loads.

DaMan

This workt well for me. http://guns.connect.fi/gow/QA6.html

All of my time playing with Blue Dot on other cartridges, I havd learned a few patterns.

Unfortunately I do not own a 308. Never personally had the use for one.

But in the light loads I have done in a batch of cases, Blue Dot works well down at 20% of the maximum case capacity, without any filler, and is not accuracy sensitive based on position of the powder in the case.

To find out how many grains 20% is, just fill it to the brim, weight the amount of powder and mulitply by .20.

It is a good place to start, Pistol or Large rifle primers are fine.

Max was only 50% in the '06 , but since you are using a 308 for a "cat sneeze" load as you call it, start at the 20% and work up until you find what you like. Accuracy will beat the daylights out of a load with Unique.

If you are using this for a target load that is one thing. If you are using it for hunting, the biggest problem is to make sure you have a bullet that opens up at your 'catsneeze' velocity.

The Ballistic tip and the Barnes X and the Speer Mag Tip, wil all open down to about 1500 fps impact velocity.

I have loaded a 30/06 done to 5 grains of blue dot, with a 110 grain bullet, and fired it. I did not chronograph it, but my 22 Mag made more noise and had more recoil than that load had.

A 125 grain ballistic tip would be my bullet of choice in that application, or the second choice would be Speers 130 grain FN bullet.

Good luck
cheers and good shooting
seafire

Dave R, here is a list of some companies that sell lead bullets. Most of them offer .30 caliber bullets.



You can find bullets suitable for loading in the .308 Win. from 93-210gr. Gas checked and plain base designs.



Mid-Kansas bullet company may be out of business (mkcb.com).



My .308s prefer bullets sized to .310".



http://missoula.bigsky.net/western/

http://www.sanjuanrange.com/ccb_prices.htm

www.beartoothbullets.com/index.htm

www.carrollbullets.com/

www.laser-cast.com/

www.proshootpro.com/

www.nationalbullet.com/

www.bonusbullets.com/

www.mkcb.com/

www.precisionbullets.com/products.html

www.magnusbullets.com/index.html



DaMan

Dave,

I don't know what your definition of a cat sneeze load is, but I was going out this afternoon to chronograph some 22/250 loads, so I loaded up several rounds in 30/06 and took them out, remembering this thread.

I was interested to see what I got.

So since I do so much with Blue Dot, that is what I loaded them up with and a 150 grain Rem SP bullet.

100% of the case full was 49.7 grains, Rem Brass.

I tested it with 20% loads then 15 % loads. Large rifle primers were used. Powder weights, 10 grains of Blue Dot and then 7 grains of Blue Dot. 7 grains gave a velocity of 907 feet per second. 10 grains gave 1103 fps and 11 grains gave 1308 fps.

NO fillers and position of the powder in the case did not seem to matter. I may test down to 10% load density which would be 5 grains if anyone is interested. However with 150 grain bullets at 15% being 900 fps, I am not seeing a usable application,,,,,, but what do I know.

Cheers and Good shooting
seafire

Dave-

Have you talked to Vickie at Liberty Shooting Supply? She and her husband probably have more bullet moulds that any other supplier I am aware of, including some very nice heavy .30 NEI numbers, such as the 215 gr. 47-B.

can't speak for Vickie, of course, but she's such a nice person I'd be surprised if you couldn't work something out with her to try a variety of small lots, either lubed & Checked by Liberty, or lubed by you.

AC

No jacketed bullets for this work. Try to keep them subsonic and you are very likely to stick one. A stuck jacketed bullet is the very devil to get out and has a high risk of ruining the barrel in the process.

Check around among the commercial casters. 130 PB RNs from a Lyman design intended for the .30 Carbine are fairly common and do well at this work. You may also be able to find 150 RN PBs intended for the CAS crew. In either case, order them .311" if you can.

Faster powder are quieter. Maybe partly because of the pressure curve, but it's also because of smaller volume of gases generated. Unique will work, but Bullseye or 231 would be quieter.

I have my doubts about getting it to shoot to the same POA as a full house load.

Just found out that Midway lists .310 160 cast by Brass Plus that look good for this stuff.

Thanks for some great info.



Can't use molds. I'm not ready to get into casting yet. Glad to know there are some good sources of lead bullets for .308.



Seafire, how much noise did your 7gr. 900fps load make?

Dave R, I'm not really sure what you want to accomplish with your .308 Win project.



To me.... a "cat sneeze" load in a .308 Win. would be one that was about as loud as a pellet rifle.



A reloading pioneer, J.R. Mattern, did extensive research into reduced loads with the .30-06. The .308 Win. has a slightly smaller case capacity than the .30-06, but his observations of reduced loads in the .30-06 ..... are also true in the .308 Win.



Mattern divided reduced loads into five classes.



1. Cellar Loads... extremely light suitable to 50ft.



2. Gallery Loads... loads only slightly heavier useful accuracy to 25yd



3. Short Outdoor Loads..... range 50-100 yards



4. Standard Outdoor Loads.... usable accuracy 200yds.



5. Mid-Range Load.... accurate to 600 yds.



Think about that Dave R..... and tell me the noise and performance level you need.



DaMan



PS - leftoverdj's post #652298 is on the mark!

DaMan, I'm looking for something between Gallery and Short Outdoor.

The purpose is pest control near town. Its legal to shoot, but neighbors will still get crazy if they hear shooting.

So it doesn't have to be extremely quiet, just pretty quiet. 25 yard effective range is fine. 50 yards would e ideal. 100 is more than I need. And I do need some power at the terminal end. That's why I am leaning toward a heavier bullet.

Dave R, I think something like the the old M-1919 would be what you're looking for.



The M-1919 was a .30-06 training load for the Springfield that many National Guard units used before WWII.



It used a 140gr. swaged lead bullet with a 10.5 gr. charge of DuPont SR-80 (no longer available) or 6 gr. of Bullseye.



This load could be duplicated in the .308 Win. by backing slightly off the 6 gr. charge of Bullseye.



However, a slightly heavier bullet might provide better accuracy. I think something in the 150-165gr. range would work well. They are also long enough to allow you to seat the bullet out to contact the lead rifling. This eliminates jump to the lead rifling (better accuracy).



You could use either plain base designs or gas check designs. The plain base bullets that the cowboy action shooters use in their .30-30s will work. You need to keep the velocity under about 1250fps or so if you choose a non-gaschecked bullet.



Stick with the faster pistol/shotgun powders. Less muzzle blast and more complete burn than the slower powders.



DaMan

The pellet gun sounding gallery load from a 45/70 and 1 ~2 gr compressed powder makes alot bigger hole in the sub urban back yard pest than the gallery load from a .308 with ~1 gr compressed powder.

Big holes count.
A .177 cal pellet clean hole through the body of a crow or squirel does not slow them down. The neck and head are more sensitive.

Sure, bigger holes count. But I have no .45-70.