I have a question about magnum vs non-magnum primers used in a relatively low capacity magnum cartridge like the WSM, Win Mag, or Rem Mag.

If one were to determine by testing in warm weather that the non-magnum primers provide a lower standard deviation in velocity, would you still trust the non-magnum primer to be as reliable in colder weather? My concern would be possible hangfires.

I just don't have a way to duplicate cold weather testing reliably. (Maybe store ammunition in cooler with dry ice? Seems unreliable and possibly dangerous to me)

Just curious.

Personally, I would not use standard primers with 65 or more grains of powders.

We ran an experiment with the 300 RUM.

Using both standard and Magnum primers.

We had very slight hang fire with standard primers every time.

But, accuracy was normal!

I solved the problem by not having any rifle rounds with the word magnum in the description of the round.
but if I were to use something with that much powder I would want to make sure the primer I used would light it all off come hunting season.

I typically use magnum primers in all my loads for hunting, especially for my 270, 280, and 30-06. I also use them in my 308. Probably not necessary, but when I worked the load up that's what I was using. .

I use magnum Fed 215 primers in belted case and overly large cases, and 210 in 06 and under cases...Keeps life simple and can't recall when I had a rifle misfire in the last 50 years anyway..Ive probably had a half dozen misfires in pistols over the last 50 years, all loader fault, not primers.

The need for a "hotter" primer is more dependent on the type of powder being used and how difficult it is to ignite than on how much of it there is. It just so happens that larger "magnum" capacity cases generally use slower, harder to ignite powders.

Few powders are so resistant to ignition that they require "magnum" primers, except perhaps in very cold temperatures -- or so I am told by people who often have occasion to hunt in such temperatures. If a powder is providing you good performance with non-magnum primers in 70 degree temperatures then I wouldn't worry about it unless you are hunting in temperatures below about 20F. Colder ambient temperatures may be a different story.

hunting in temps above 20 is more the exception.
when I pulled the trigger on my buck on opening morning last year it was just after sun up and almost 10-F.
I was thinking about taking the flannel shirt off and putting on a jacket when I seen him.

Ive hunted in 40 below weather with both magnum and non magnum primers, been told ball powders need a magnum primer..Ive never had a problem one way or the other..I think this is a hangover from days gone by, modern powder and primers are al but foolproof, but they have yet to cure the BS problems that haunts the halls of the industry..Hangfires are 99.9% reloader mishaps. Most Ive seen is primer seating or brass that goes forward in the chamber from the primer strike, or perhaps improper care of primers. Age doesn't seem to be a problem, I recently shot up a carton of 45 to 50 year old CCI primers and not a misfire..Others may have had different problems but if so search within first of all.

I think we have a lot of misconceptions on this subject due to the arm chair writers of the past.

Some of things we used to read and take for granted were downright stupid, now that we have done it ourselves.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and replies. It has been an interesting discussion.

I am going to continue using magnum primers for charges over 65 grains, as recommended by Saaed. I will also continue to use magnum primers with certain ball powders if they are recommended by the manufacturer or other manual. Their means of testing is far beyond anything I could ever do on my own range.

For me, the risk of a hangfire far outweighs any perceived benefit of lower S.D. or E.S. over a chronograph.

If you're having any issues at all with hang-fires then I'd check headspace first, then firing pin protrusion, then whether or not there's goo/crud on the firing pin assembly hindering movement, then the firing pin spring itself. If that all checks out then I'd start worrying about primers and cold weather ignition.

And you can test cold ammo with a cooler and ice/dry ice. I can't see why that would be possibly dangerous; unless you fired a squib round, then fired another round in an obstructed bore. If it exacerbates an already problematic hangfire situation, then you should certainly wait a while before unlocking the bolt.

How cold do you really intend to be shooting in Louisiana, exactly?

I have had hangfires from cold grease on the firing pin and a couple from cheap Russian LRM primers whose primers varied in weight by 40 milligrams or more. The lightest of which were duds.

quote:

Originally posted by jpl:
If you're having any issues at all with hang-fires...

How cold do you really intend to be shooting in Louisiana, exactly?

Thank you for the response. Let me clear up a couple of issues.

1) I’m not having hangfires. I was merely curious about some folks who were stating they received lower standard deviation and extreme spread using standard rifle primers in magnum cartridges, a practice I’ve never done myself because of concern for possible hangfires. Especially in a colder climate.

2) You incorrectly assume I only hunt in Louisiana. Only the criminals are worthy of shooting with magnum calibers around here, and that’s only if more than one are lined up in a row.

The definition of hangfire does not exclude mechanical causes such as JPL mentions. Experienced this two consecutive cold Nov days. .300 Win M-77. Cause was congealed lube in the action (still not sure exactly where). Baffled me at first, b/c the rifle fired fine around mid-day. After the second time, hosed everything down with brake cleaner.

Held the same opinion as Ray on chemical hangfires until this past fall. Loaded .300 Win w/IMR-4831 and R 9.5s for a couple 700s and got very subtle hangfires. Used IMR-4831 b/c ran out of favored IMR-4350. Charges were 71 gr in one rifle (31xx fps), 69 gr (29xx fps) in the other.

Switched to a 9.5M and that ended the matter. Just as Saeed found, groups were not affected. Also, velocities did not change when switching to the 9.5M.

quote:

Originally posted by Kenati:
You incorrectly assume I only hunt in Louisiana

You didn't and still haven't quantified what 'cold' is. Go test your load if you're concerned.

On factor I didn't see mentioned was case volume relative to powder charge.

Hodgdon says that where H4895 is listed as an acceptable powder, one can use 60% of a max charge to create a reduced recoil loading. In a .416 Rem Mag, a max charge of H4895 is around 78 grains. That means that 60% is around 47 grains. Following Saeed's rule of thumb, can I then use a standard primer for the reduced quantity of powder, or does the large case volume still require a magnum primer for safe use?

my .358X.404 IMP Had hang fires using A4064 and WLR primers.
Same load with WLRM primers had no hang fires.
Same rifle --- Wcc 844 and wcc 846 and wlr primers produced a lot of hang fires. WLRM primers resolved MOST, but not all, of the .844 loads but none of the 846 loads.
Had a similar but smaller problem ,same rifle, using the infamous 7383 . roger

A magnum primer does not make a magnum cartridge.
I use standard primers in magnum cases and magnum primers in standard cases all the time.

I have had hangfires in 2 cartridges to date which were my doing, not the primer or cartridge, but the powder and how much was used.
First time was a 300WM firing 150gr BT’s with a load of H4350 about 5% below a start load in most manuals. Using FED215 primers, every round had a ‘click-bang’ about half a second apart. Moved to a start load, problem disappeared. I use standard primers in the 300 all the time without issue.
Second time was with the then new 7RUM we had in the shop, trying to duplicate Remington’s bottom recoil load velocity, no suitable powder we tried would NOT hang fire. In that there was no data available, I tried a few fast powders, but the velocity wasn’t there and a few had dented cases after firing.
This case had hangfires of a full second or more, we deemed it dangerous and remotely fired it several times waiting to see it detonate itself, it didn’t and we gave up.
Even ball powders produced sooted and dented cases. Magnum primers made no difference in this instance.

Cheers.

This is a good read on primers. http://www.shootingtimes.com/a..._st_mamotaip_200909/

Note that some powders with starting or mid-range load, don't perform well with standard primers.

Always use a magnum primer for ball powders. IMO.

At Lake City Army Ammunition Plant all the rifle cartridges are loaded with magnum primers, even in the 5.56 ammunition.

And they also use a majority of ball powders in their rifle ammunition.

Now look at the photos below and the Remington primers. Remington ran Lake City from 1941 until 1985. And the Remington primers were used to light off Winchester ball powders "and" single base IMR powders.

Primer Flash Test Photos
http://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html

I'm simple minded and go with the K.I.S.S principle...mag primer with mag cases(75+ gr case capacity) and standard primers with "standard" cases (-70 gr case capacity)...and don't go all nutz or hair splitting and throw in condition testing to be sure. Many manuals list the primer which was used.

I have some 40-50 year old CCI LR primers that are cranky and quit from time to time, but that same batch of primers(~2000 THEN) are that old because the were squirrely from the git go...I will get them all shot up someday...I use them in my small cals for varmints until I get more than three-..four misfires and quit using them(I only load 10 at a time). They are also HARD AND SLIGHTLY LARGER than all the other brands

I've had standard primer failures with a specific powder at low temps in large cased 22 cal using small rifle primers...AND the same thing happening using LR primers in the same caliber using LR cases with the same powder so I surmised it was the powder NOT the primer causing the dust-up...it was a 22-243 Middlsted using Rem BR small rifle primer cases and Win 243 LR cases.

I DO agree with Saeed about the misconceptions we ALL have swallowed which is why I am constantly testing SOMETHING about this sport.

One good thing about the 'net and U-toob is the de-lying aspect...someone somewhere is doing a vid on just about every subject you can imagine!

I did a bit of primer testing 20-30??? years ago using several brands of mag, standard and BR type primers a few years before Layne S. published his excellent article and tried to sell it to Shooting Times along with several other interesting things(I thought)..."your services are not required"...Sooooo...using a very accurate 222 Rem that was a bugholer with one specific load(used as the control load), I found that changing the primer alone would cause a change in POI AND a change in group of 1 1/4" or slightly over...PRIMER CHANGE ONLY

Times have changed...ALL components are controlled much tighter on the QC end...which is one reason rifles are so accurate today, even the "cheep" ones...I have/had a few that could compete with BR rifles of the 60's right out of the box with a slight tune-up and tuned ammo.

No matter WHAT your/the question is...with todays tools you can probably answer it better by doing some testing yourself...What Saeed said also fits with forums...you NEVER know the level of expertise a responder has!!!!

AMAZING

GOOD HUNTING

quote:

Originally posted by bigrdp51:
At Lake City Army Ammunition Plant all the rifle cartridges are loaded with magnum primers, even in the 5.56 ammunition.

And they also use a majority of ball powders in their rifle ammunition.

Now look at the photos below and the Remington primers. Remington ran Lake City from 1941 until 1985. And the Remington primers were used to light off Winchester ball powders "and" single base IMR powders.

Primer Flash Test Photos
http://www.6mmbr.com/primerpix.html

That’s fascinating! Thanks for sharing.

I once bought a beautiful Rifles Inc. gun for $600 because the owner was having a serious problem with misfires and hang fires so he gave up on the gun. I took the bolt apart and the firing pin spring was packed with lithium grease. I cleaned it up and the problem was solved.

Most people do not have the time to do all the the things they'd like to do. I'd love to spend my days testing individual components and firearms, but life doesn't work like that. So like the vast majority of the world, reading the works of others is a necessary part of life, and quite enjoyable too. Yes, there is lots of junk out there, so one needs some critical thinking skills to sift through the lot. But asking questions and evaluating the information will save precious time and likely materials as well.

A local commercial reloader had some 300WM with std primers he loaded for a customer hang fire in very cold weather. He couldn't believe it but was able to replicate it in his testing. Been a few years back so I don't recall the powder it primers used. This guy has been loading for many years and I have always put a lot of stock in what he says.

A "strange" topic the one of hangfires !

Every single course / instruction on gun safety whether civilian or military, small arms or cannon covers the topic of the "hangfire" and in spite of this the least covered, studied or understood entity and if it is there its little scientific papers dealing with it.

It is certainly defined but the is a conspicuous paucity in the ballistics literature on hang fires and specifically the connection to the less understood topic of SEE

The issue of is a hangfire a precursor to what we have come to (possibly incorrectly ) call a Secondary explosion effect?

More recently in Canadian Legal proceedings the very visible Colton Boushie shooting case where the defence put the issue of a hangfire as the reason for the gun going off and killing Mr Boushie. There was some expert testimony on this topic and reading the defences arguments on the topic I found it to be even more vague and imprecise. When scanning the forensics literature there have been defences put forth in the past on the same topic... ie a round going off some time after the firing sequence has been initiated

Stoppage drills when firing machined guns in the military .... who can forget those ! I still have my dented "Staaldak" ( Tin roof ) helmet from phase two of basic weapons training where the instructor beat you over the head with a stick if you did not execute the stoppage drills on the FM Mag quick enough or correctly. Every military gunnery manual covers the topic and remedy drills given and taught !

On to bigger guns. The dangers of hangfires on externally driven automatic cannon such as chain guns. Helicopter mounted chain guns and hangfires, dangerous business ! Imagine being in the confines of a tank turret when this occurs on a externally driven autoloading gun. or sitting in a helicopter with one of these just below the cockpit !

There are numerous patents out there submitted by the big name manufacturers of gun systems that deal with the prevention of a round that has undergone a hangfire going off outside the confines of the gun chamber and blowing up the gun and injuring the gunners.

Or having a hangfire on a big cannon. The famous incident of a US Frigate having its number 3 gun mount destroyed by a hangfire during the war in the pacific.

I have had my own ! trying to download a 460 Weatherby built on a Brno 602. Not only did it hangfire it blew an case and the gun, the action held but the bottom metal screws trigger group etc blew right out of the stock !

Jeeeze, bet that was exciting!!

I have a recovered hangfire bullet from my childhood, I was about 4 years old the bullet went flying out the barrel of my double barreled pop gun several times, I was shooting a live round 30-06 that I found on the dresser. I fired it a number of times butthe last time it hit something and exploded, hit the dresser then the indoor ceiling and and went thru or into the mattress where I set straddle legged and the bullet skimmed my skivvies and my pinkie tiny, another fraction would have de-peckered me..

My uncle saved that bullet for years and gave it to me before he died a few years ago..