Back when I was deep into service rifle competition (Doing 308 and 30-06 reloading), my Texas club always bought our powder in 25 Lb cans.
Are powders still available for purchase in the 25 Lb cans.
If not when did it change and what are the current restrictions on amount of powder.

Generally speaking they are, but they are not shippable to you by common carrier.

Used to, powder came in many different sized containers, such as 1/2, 1, 4, 5, 8, 20, 25, 50, and 100 pounders (and in Canada 220 lb containers-100 kilos). Not every powder came in every size, but it was no problem to buy in bulk.

Then whackos on both sides of the beliefs spectrum decided to either make bombs, or that we are too stupid as human beings to handle larger amounts safely and pressure arose to forbid the mass destruction risks associated with , lordy, lordy, "gunpowder". Thelegislatures/councils began nibbling at the shipping regulations as the easiest way to restrict us, with the full applauding support of the national law enforcement agencies.


One of the biggest supporters of such restrictions was Fire Departments, and their "Model Fire Code" which has been adopted over the years by know-nothing city and county governments virtually all over the U.S. The Model Code would have all jurisdictions limit powder to 1 pound cans, with no more in possession at a single residential site than 20 pounds total (10 Kilos or 22 pounds, Canada).

So, just like you and I would do if we were in charge of marketing for the powder companies, the companies began shifting production to sizes which could be legally shipped and possessed.

To get sizes larger than 8 pounds now, most sellers insist on no shipping. You have to pick it up at their place of sales. And then you have to hope all the way home you don't get stopped by the Gestapo and issued a citation for violation of transport regulations regarding private automobiles. You may also get the opportunity to proove you are not a terrorist, which can be a tad tough.

Per NPFA

It is less than 50# if stored in a wooden box, 20# if just on a shelf.



CHAPTER 9. SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION, SMALL
ARMS PRIMERS, SMOKELESS PROPELLANTS AND
BLACK POWDER PROPELLANTS
93. SMOKELESS PROPELLANTS

931. Quantities of smokeless propellants in shipping container approved by the U.S. Department of Transportation not in excess of 25 pounds may be transported in a passenger vehicle.

932. Quantities in excess of 25 pounds but not exceeding 50 pounds in a passenger vehicle shall be transported in a portable magazine having wooden walls of at least 1-inch nominal thickness.

933. Transportation of quantities in excess of 50 pounds is prohibited in passenger vehicles.

934. Commercial shipments of smokeless propellant for small arms in quantities not exceeding 100 pounds are classified for transportation purposes as a flammable solid when approved by the Bureau of Explosives and when packaged in accordance with the U.S. Department of Transportation Hazardous Materials Regulations. Title 49 CFR, Transportation, Section 173.197a. Shipments of quantities of smokeless propellant for small arms in excess of 100 pounds or in packages not in accordance with Title 49 CFR, Transportation, Section 173.197a, shall be in compliance with U.S. Department of Transportation regulations for Propellant Explosives Class B.

935. All smokeless propellants shall be stored in shipping containers specified by the U.S. Department of Transportation.

936. Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities not to exceed 20 pounds may be stored in original containers in residences; quantities over 20 pounds but not to exceed 50 pounds may be stored in residences in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least 1-inch nominal thickness.

937. Not more than 20 pounds of smokeless propellants, in containers of 1-pound maximum capacity, shall be displayed in commercial establishments.

938. Commercial stocks of smokeless propellants shall be stored as follows:

a. In quantities over 20 pounds and not more than 100 pounds, they shall be stored in portable wooden boxes having walls of at least 1-inch thickness.
b. In quantities over 100 pounds and not more than 800 pounds, they shall be stored in nonportable storage cabinets having wooden walls of at least 1-inch thickness. Not more than 400 pounds shall be permitted in any one cabinet and the cabinets shall be separated by a wall having a minimum one-hour fire resistance rating, as determined by NFPA 251-1972, Standard Methods of fire Tests of Building Construction and Materials, or by a distance of no less than 25 feet.
c. Commercial stocks in excess of 800 pounds and not more than 5,000 pounds may be stored in a building if the following requirements are met:
The warehouse or storage room is not accessible to unauthorized personnel.
The smokeless propellant stocks are stored in nonportable storage cabinets having wooden walls at least 1-inch thick and having shelves with not more than a 3-foot separation between shelves.
Not more than 400 pounds is permitted in any one cabinet.
Cabinets are located only against walls of the storage room or warehouse with a minimum distance between cabinets of 40 feet.
Separation distance between cabinets may be reduced to 20 feet if barricades: 1, are attached to the wall and are at least twice the height of the cabinet; 2, are centered between cabinets and extend at least 10 feet beyond the wall toward the center of the room; 3, are constructed of at least 2-inch thick lumber, brick, or concrete block or of boiler plate at least 1/4-inch thick, or of equivalent materials; and 4, are firmly attached to the building structure at both ends.
Smokeless propellant is separated by a fire-resistant wall of 1-hour rating or by a distance of 25 feet from materials classified by the U.S. Department of Transportation as flammable liquids, flammable solids and oxidizing materials.
The building is equipped with an automatic sprinkler system installed in compliance with NFPA No. 13, Standard for the Installation of Sprinkler Systems.
d. Commercial stocks of smokeless propellant not stored in accordance with a,b,, and c of this Section, whichever applies, shall be stored in a Type 4 magazine constructed and located as specified in Chapter 3.

Great info Duckear.
I had never before seen that much info on the topic of powder: amounts, storage, and transportation.
Thanks very much.

Ask anyone with an IQ in high double digits or better whether they would rather have 3.3 gallons (20 pounds) of gasoline stored under their bed or 20 pounds of H4831, and you'll start to understand how nonsensical shipping regulations and fire codes are.

Muzzleloading hunters can't take powder or primers on a plane, but they can take a hundred rounds of 7mm STW filled with Pyrodex and a hundred shotgun shells primed with the same 209 primers their muzzleloader uses. When you get where you're going, take them apart for the components and go hunt.

I bought 20 lb kegs of surplus 4831 when I was in college; and I remember a gunshop selling repackaged 4831 from a one-hundred lb keg. Everyone seems to have settled on 8-pounders for their "bulk" container except for Alliant, which inexplicably uses 5-pounders for its RL line.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:
Per NPFA

CHAPTER 9. SMALL ARMS AMMUNITION, SMALL
ARMS PRIMERS, SMOKELESS PROPELLANTS AND
BLACK POWDER PROPELLANTS
93. SMOKELESS PROPELLANTS

A good list of the DOT & Fire stuff. It is also worth noting that some major state and municipal jurisdictions have additional rules and regulations.

So, when I need more than 8 lbs of a single powder designation, I just order a multiple of 8-lb'ers.

Still, one has to be careful because of all the overlapping jurisdictions. Which is one reason why I took care to locate in a county that has NOT adopted or adapted the Model Fire Code but instead adopted its own home-built "rural" fire code. aAd I don't live in a city, and I do have a barn well separated from my residence.

Interesting to me where some of these Associations and other jurisdictional aspirants think they get their powers.

I know when I was a LEO in Kalifornia, even the FBI was not permitted to investigate crimes on other than federal properties in our county without the specific permission (in each instance) of the County Sheriff. As the highest elective law enforcement officer in county jurisdiction, he was the last and highest authority in charge of law enforcement in his County. I can recall the FBI agents from Salinas coming to visit old Sheriff & Tax Collector John A. Lucchetti (San Benito County) to clear an operation they wanted to conduct in our county.

Interestingly enough, not all counties welcomed the FBI with open arms as we usually (but not always) did. We hired a Detective Lieutenant from Fresno County, who, when he heard they were coming over to talk with John again, snorted:

"Oh boy the FBI! The three most over-rated things in the world are home-cooking, home-f---ing, and the FBI".

Whatever. Keep your noses clean out there.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Ask anyone with an IQ in high double digits or better whether they would rather have 3.3 gallons (20 pounds) of gasoline stored under their bed or 20 pounds of H4831, and you'll start to understand how nonsensical shipping regulations and fire codes are.

I gotta laugh at that too. How many folks have an attached garage with two cars in it? Just how much petrol do you think is sitting under their roof?

quote:

936. Smokeless propellants intended for personal use in quantities not to exceed 20 pounds may be stored in original containers in residences; quantities over 20 pounds but not to exceed 50 pounds may be stored in residences in a wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least 1-inch nominal thickness.

So, is storing an amount greater than 50 pounds in a residence illegal?

quote:

So, is storing an amount greater than 50 pounds in a residence illegal?

It is usually not a question of legality as compliance with fire codes is typically not sanctioned with criminal or civil penalties. The fire code is a set of standards. The problem that non-compliance creates is in terms of things like insurance coverage and potential civil liability. In other words, your insurance company might not pay your loss for a fire started in your garage due to code-compliant gasoline by blaming the non-compliant 21 lbs of powder stored in the opposite end of your house. By the same token, the damage to your neighbor's house on the other side of your flaming garage might be attributed to your extra pound of powder.

A code non-compliance issue can be used to scapegoat. But of course, no insurance company would ever do a thing like that.

Individual residents may or may not have problems with code violations depending on the proximity to their neighbors. A heavy handed fire inspector can and may force them to get rid of any excess amounts of which he becomes aware...particularly if he becomes aware of it via a complaint from other members of the community. If the resident refuses to reduce his powder store to meet the code, the inspector may also take other steps to make a neighborhood "safe" within the terms of the local fire code.

Usually though, if the powder is delivered directly to the resident by common carrier, no one will know or care how much they have or how it is stored...UNTIL they have a problem with it.


BUT, getting back to what size containers of powder are available, code violations can definitely result in sanctions up to and including yanking the business license of a retail seller found in violation of the applicable fire code(s) at his place of business. So retailers usually will limit the size of containers they order for stock, unless they also happen to have access to a licensed magazine in which to store powders packaged in larger amounts.

That, in turn, means the powder manufacturers will package their powders in the size of containers the retailers will order.

So it is no longer very common to have easy access to individual cannisters of the 50 and 100 pound sizes.


P.S.: Incidentally, there is an available licensed magazine just down this country road on which I live.

quote:

wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least 1-inch nominal thickness.

Heck, back in the 40s flake TNT boxes only had 1/2 inch walls.

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:

quote:

wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least 1-inch nominal thickness.

Heck, back in the 40s flake TNT boxes only had 1/2 inch walls.

I've never know what the code meant by "nominal thickness". Do they mean milled "one-by" lumber, which is actually 3/4" thick? Do they mean my kitchen-type cabinets that I store my personal powder in, which have near 1" edges on the doors, but have center panels as thin as 3/16"? Do they mean "one-inch plywood", which used to be 15/16", but is now some "metric equivalent" that works out to about .89"? Or, since "one-by" milled lumber is actually 3/4", do they mean 3/4" plywood, which was actually 23/32nds before it shrank to .688" or something like that?

Bottom line: It's whatever the inspector says it is.

Incidentally, storage instructions for smokeless powder used to make it clear that whatever powder is stored in, it should NOT be pressure-resistant. If powder should ignite, the container/cabinet needs to fall apart with little resistance since confining the pressure of burning powder is what makes it go "boom" in your gun, and it can do much the same thing inside a heavy, tightly built container.

It is my understanding that "nominal" means exactly what the dictionary says it means "existing only in name". That is, in this case made of lumber which is 1" thickness in name only, not in actual fact.


It is also my understanding that wood is the named product for building powder storage boxes because it is the best common compromise beween having sufficient strength to not fall apart when it is lifted for removal during a fire, yet not "containing" the powder tightly enough to cause a really, really serious detonation,should fire actually reach the powder. And, at the same time wood often does not catch fire and/or burn completely through (to the powder) before the box can be removed and the fire doused.

Back many years ago when I was Deputy Chief of a central Kalifornia fire department, we went to house or garage (and in one case, barn) fires on several occasions over a couple of years where old-time primer containers (100-primer trays) of wood and cardboard had come through those fires scorched and even a little charred, but with all the primers intact. They were nowhere near as thick as the Code requirements for powder storage boxes. In those old-time primer boxes, the primers were in 10 rows of ten, just like now but were lying in the boxes on their sides, with a thin strip of wood between each row.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Generally speaking they are, but they are not shippable to you by common carrier.

Used to, powder came in many different sized containers, such as 1/2, 1, 4, 5, 8, 20, 25, 50, and 100 pounders (and in Canada 220 lb containers-100 kilos). Not every powder came in every size, but it was no problem to buy in bulk.

Then whackos on both sides of the beliefs spectrum decided to either make bombs, or that we are too stupid as human beings to handle larger amounts safely and pressure arose to forbid the mass destruction risks associated with , lordy, lordy, "gunpowder". Thelegislatures/councils began nibbling at the shipping regulations as the easiest way to restrict us, with the full applauding support of the national law enforcement agencies.


One of the biggest supporters of such restrictions was Fire Departments, and their "Model Fire Code" which has been adopted over the years by know-nothing city and county governments virtually all over the U.S. The Model Code would have all jurisdictions limit powder to 1 pound cans, with no more in possession at a single residential site than 20 pounds total (10 Kilos or 22 pounds, Canada).

So, just like you and I would do if we were in charge of marketing for the powder companies, the companies began shifting production to sizes which could be legally shipped and possessed.

To get sizes larger than 8 pounds now, most sellers insist on no shipping. You have to pick it up at their place of sales. And then you have to hope all the way home you don't get stopped by the Gestapo and issued a citation for violation of transport regulations regarding private automobiles. You may also get the opportunity to proove you are not a terrorist, which can be a tad tough.

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:

quote:

wooden box or cabinet having walls of at least 1-inch nominal thickness.

Heck, back in the '40's flake TNT boxes only had 1/2 inch walls.

Less shrapnel.

If you think about, if it blows nothing will contain it. If it burns, heavier wood only contributes that much more to the fire.

My guess is that those standards were written by people who knew more about straight-stream nozzles, from practical application, than they did about explosives.