I have just started working with my 7mm/08 that I have had rechambered to 7mm/08 Ackley improved. To be honest so far it is not as good as I would have liked or expected. I am using Remington cases and was wondering if another brand would give me more capacity. I tried necking down some Federal .308 brass, they worked ok but had a couple of grains less capacity. Anyone help? Thanks

Norma cases will give you a little more capacity. 08 based cases don't gain much by improving, the 7x57 on the other hand.....

Perhasit's not the case at all.
Perhaps you should re examine your expectations for increased velocity from AIing. Since velocity increases at 1/4 the rate of increase in powder volume, and AIing a 7/08 will add just 1-2 grains of powder, you're not likely to get more than 50 fps increase...at comperable pressures.
And AIng makes no sense unless you use a powder that you couldn't fit into the parent case while reaching desired/safe pressures.
This is not sour grapes, I shoot half dozen wildcats, including several AI's.

I have not tried Norma in the 308 based cases. I have found it gave me about 3grs more capacity in the 06 based.

I have played with AIs and full wildcats for years. What I found in the 308 cases is a equal pressure there is just very little gain. The 1% velocity gain for 4% powder is a good rule of thumb.

quote:

Originally posted by Lazercft:
To be honest so far it is not as good as I would have liked or expected.

In terms of accuracy or velocity?

Don

quote:

Originally posted by Lazercft:
I have just started working with my 7mm/08 that I have had rechambered to 7mm/08 Ackley improved. To be honest so far it is not as good as I would have liked or expected. I am using Remington cases and was wondering if another brand would give me more capacity. I tried necking down some Federal .308 brass, they worked ok but had a couple of grains less capacity. Anyone help? Thanks

You might consider .284 brass....I think it will work better if you are after more speed.

Seriously... you don't have much room to improve with the 7mm08. Winchester has long been touted as having harder thinner brass. But that is a poor avenue to travel down for significant gain.

My Dad wasn't happy with the way that Rem or Win brass shot in his standard 7mm-08 after quite a bit of case prepping was done to uniform the brass. He decided to neck down Lapua 308 Win. The gun shoots 1/2" groups all day long with 140gr. Nosler Bal Tips and either VarGet or AA-4064. I can't comment on the case capacity difference between the Lapua, Fed, Rem or Win. Never bothered checking. Just know that Lapua shoots better than Rem or Win and requires very little case prepping. Hope this helps.

Lapua, period.

I used Lapua 243 cases in my 7mm-08. these cases were still going after 25 reloads while remington 7mm-08 cases were loosing neck tension after around 12 reloads.

I fireformed the 243 cases using 10 grains of shotgun powger, filling the case with a filler then sealing the necks with candle wax. Then firing them in my 7mm-08, the result was perfectly formed 7mm-08 cases.

Depending on how tight your chamber neck is you might try lapua 243. I use them in my 260ai. There is only about 2.5gr greater cap. than RP160 brass. Otherwise def. give Norma a try. I like my 260ai but I don't think it offers much over the 260.

See my response to RONT under "7-08AI", same forum.

OK, I'm going to ask a question that may sound dumb to some.....Seeing several posts that allude to accuracy problems with a 7mm-08 depending on case used and having a rifle of that caliber that is real erratic and hard to dial in with any load. Could it really be the winchester/remington brass I'm using? I'm not complaining but I've tried everything possible to tighten up groups and tight consistant accuracy just keeps remaining impossible. Not trying to hijack the thread but I've changed everything on my rifle and still can't solve this, I've been under the impression that the 7mm-08 is naturally accurate and felt its something I just haven't corrected. Now that every part of the gun is different.....I figured by some cruel twist of fate that something new is still not quite right. If I didn't have a small fortune tied up in the gun and some personal attachment (my Dad gave it to me originally)I'd dump it and try something else in a different caliber. Then I see this thread with imformation about possible case differences...can you tell I'm grasping at anything that might be it?

woods

woodseye,
When you say you have tried everything, what do you mean? Give specifics. There are many things that can cause this sort of problem.
The barrel crown, barrel itself, inletting of stock poorly done, etc... etc...

quote:

Originally posted by woodseye:
OK, I'm going to ask a question that may sound dumb to some.....Seeing several posts that allude to accuracy problems with a 7mm-08 depending on case used and having a rifle of that caliber that is real erratic and hard to dial in with any load. Could it really be the winchester/remington brass I'm using? I'm not complaining but I've tried everything possible to tighten up groups and tight consistant accuracy just keeps remaining impossible. Not trying to hijack the thread but I've changed everything on my rifle and still can't solve this, I've been under the impression that the 7mm-08 is naturally accurate and felt its something I just haven't corrected. Now that every part of the gun is different.....I figured by some cruel twist of fate that something new is still not quite right. If I didn't have a small fortune tied up in the gun and some personal attachment (my Dad gave it to me originally)I'd dump it and try something else in a different caliber. Then I see this thread with imformation about possible case differences...can you tell I'm grasping at anything that might be it?

woods

Give us a list of what you have done and then we may be able to help. I shoot 2 7mm08s and they both consistently shoot in the .2s. Today conditions were calm and both shot in the .1s so it is not the caliber but something else that is causing the problem for you.

Have had the gun since it was new, never shot worth a darn and for a couple years I excepted minute of deer accuracy. Than I took up handloading and got bit by the accuracy bug, decided it would shoot or else.....First I bought an aftermarket stock (stockade by Rayhill with alum. internal bedding block) had my smith who builds mauser custom accuracy guns bed it. Floated the barrel and tang (its a savage) no difference. Next a douglas barrel from Sharpshooter Supply, headspaced with a target crown and target recoil lug, slight difference (went from consistant 2"-3" groups to 1/1/2" groups). Next took the adjusted savage trigger out and replaced with a SSS one at 2#,again no difference. Now its got to be the scope or mounts I figure so off with the leupold 4.5x14 and weaver mounts and on with a conquest and burris/grand slam, no difference. At this point I'm pretty discouraged so talk to Fred M. at SSS, he suggests several handloading tips, I quickly graduate to match prepping my brass (weight sorting,flash hole deburring,forester bench rest dies,OAL tuning, and measuring and adjusting run-out) and trying all types and brands of powders, primers.I'm getting desperate now, send the gun to Kevin Rayhill at stockade stocks, he assures me he'll get it to 1/2" groups with my longtime favorite parition bullets. I need to send gun - scope - and dies - to accomplish this. He rebeds, checks all the savage problem areas (too long front scope base screws,too long frt action screws) and readjusts the dies. Calls and tells me the barrel needs to have 2' cut off the 24" length and a recrown, i drag my feet and argue that barrel length can't be effecting accuracy that bad. He calls again and says hes found the problem,the bolt is too loose in the action and needs to be sleeved. He sleeves the bolt and says its shooting 1/2" groups with his load, hes using the same load I found to be best (H4350 45grs,fed 210m primers) only difference is hes using remington brass instead of win. OK get the gun back and its still right at 1 1/2' groups same as it ever was. Call him hot and he says he changed and used a nightforce scope instead of the conquest he insisted I send. We change scopes again to a 4200 elite that is shooting in the high ones and low twos on a 22-250 savage I've put together and worked up a load for in the meantime.At this point I tell the smith to cut the barrel to 22"
and put on a target crown, finially under pressure to try other bullets I try BT's - inter locs - and accu bonds. The BT's shoot between 1/2-3/4" and the interbonds right at an inch. I'm not a BT fan so the work continues. At this point we rebed again because the barrel nut can't be bedded with all the barrel on and off work (the barrel nut is in a different position each time reassembled) and I hunt with the accu bonds as a single shot because they are too long to fit the mag when set anywhere close to the lands, rest of the mag full of parition minute of deer loads. OK its been a year and a half now, built another savage varmint gun almost totally by myself this time.....it shoots in the twos first time out with the test loads.....hmmmmmm....my 7mm-08 has to hate me. Now the action goes to SSS for a complete square,true, and time job, Fred calls and says its about the most out of time savage action hes ever seen ( way over cocking) so I'm hopeful, now it will shoot paritions at between 1"-1 1/2" and its always large triangles,never a line like its bedding. I know I should give up and accept it but my stubborn nature refuses to accept that it won't/can't shoot like the other savages I'm building. Next comes a new match grade pac nor barrel, this has to be the weak link I feel, nope after break-in its now shooting several shots in a typical group real tight (touching) and others its an inch in any random direction (no pattern) once in a while it will actually shoot a group in the threes but the next will open back up to over and inch. One more try, I'll buy another action and put on it, this has to be the weak spot. New savage varmint action is installed with zero....you read right, zero change in preformance. Everyone tells me it sounds like scope and mounts, so another loaner scope off of one of my accurate guns along with different mounts, you guessed it nada. My smith is a good friend and has helped me with suggestions and actual work now for years and I believe feels my pain on this, he suggests theres nothing left but the stock, it has to be the stock. I get a different brand (bell and carlson dura max) and drop it in that stock. Still a couple close ones and a couple flyers in no particular order or direction. Every single part has been changed and checked with no solution. It looks the same but theres no part left that started this expensive and terrible adventure. I've had bench shooters shoot it in case its me lacking confidance in it and the results are always the same. I guess I could launch off trying every bullet make out there but I'm a 20 odd year parition user and in our thick and nasty woods they just have always worked best for me and I'm not into compromising on this point. Thats why when I see a post like this, it caught my eye. I guess I keep thinking its something small thats eluding me. I've already started another gun in, you guessed it,7mm-08. I got a tactical action coming (10FP) and another pac nor barrel, I hope when it goes together these demons won't envade this one, but I wonder now if I'll ever get the 7mm-08 to shoot with 140gr paritions. Except for Dwight who keeps my hopes up that the cartridge is accurate.....I just can't find a rifle that will do it. Sorry for the long post but thats the truth and entire story, so you can see why I would grasp at anything that sounded hopeful.

woods

Some other thoughts, have you had anyone else load these for you that gets his components from a different source? I would want to eliminate the possibility that you got into a bad run of bullets or brass. Heck even powder or primers. Or that it had anythimg to do with the reloading process. Only try one change at a time so you don't "stack" tolerances (i.e. more than one part undersized/oversized compounding the problem)

Having a manufacturing engineering degree makes me think along these lines. If you got a new box of bullets but from the same source, they were most likely made in the same time frame. Batch to Batch nothing made by human hands or machines built by us is identical. Only God can get that kind of consistency. You may have already tried this but if not........

It seems you have tried A LOT of possibilities. You say you are trying to get it to shoot with 140s. Does it shoot well with other bullets?? Don't be offended by these suggestions if you have already tried them. Just some thoughts.

Thanks for the ideas Trez, I've used bullets from at least 4 sources over the period and at different times. I've went thru three bags of brass again bought from different sources and at different times. Powder has been from two separate batches. Primers are running low now (fed 210M's are getting hard to find) and last two range sessions have used fed 210 and had the same results. If its something in my reloading techniques it should show in other calibers I load for and my smith who is an old reloader for years would no doubt notice when I load at his shop. I would simply write the project off as a can't get there from here type of thing and the one place where I have stood fast (insisting to make paritions shoot to 1/2") just aren't going to shoot in any gun I build in this caliber. I did however try 140 - 150 - and 175 paritions to see if another weight would perhaps shoot different. I believe its the barrel and some how its just not going to shoot my bullet choice. I know this would mean I have bought two custom barrels in a row that won't shoot paritions but stranger things have happened I guess. Since savage rifles are so interchangable and since my newest creation in 22-250 shot some test groups in .261 and .410 groups I'm going to simply swap the pac nor 7mm-08 barrel on that complete rifle, scope and all. It will be the same everything that is shooting very well with only the 7mm-08 barrel different. If it shoots, I know its something in the other rifle and if it doesn't it has to be a barrel that hates paritions. Dawned on me to try that while working today so I'll know something this weekend.

woods

Woods,
You must be about ready to throw it in the river. I have never heard of such trouble in all my years of shooting and loading. Savages that I have shot have shot very well but they just don't feel as good in my hands as a Rem 700. The 7mm08 was a very popular caliber for accuracy when Rem started chambering it and one of my friends was winning matches with one so I had to try it. My favorite caliber forever I guess. I bought the Rem Varmint in 1982 and cut and crowned the barrel to 20". I bedded it myself and put a Leupold VSII 3x9 on it with weaver rings. It has shot tiny groups with Sierra 100s, 130s, 150s and 160s. Shoots tiny groups with TSX 120s and 140s.

This one will really get you. I was talking to a friend at the range about this rifle and that I wanted to build a spare to shoot at the range so I would always have my favorite one for hunting. He had a barrel in his safe from 1990 when he bought one and used the action for a BR rifle. I bought the barrel for $50. Another guy had a 22-250 for sale so I bought it and took the barrel off. Screwed on the 7mm08 barrel and checked the headspace. Put a weaver T36 on it and HS precision stock and it shoots in the .1s with no other work done. I did the trigger job on it and I added a Gre Tan fluted firing pin.
I use Rem brass and don't debur flash holes and don't weigh brass. I use CCI BR2 primers. It shot in the .1s with Sierra 150 match bullets and H4350 powder. My dies are set up to give me .003 neck tension and no expander.

It hurts to read all your troubles and I was thinking maybe you just couldn't shoot but you have other rifles that you shoot well so that is out. The reason that I thought that is I bedded one of my friends rifles and worked up a load for him that shot .5 groups. We go to the range and he is complaining of 2 inch groups. I took his place at the bench and fired two shots that touched and went back to my bench.

With all that you have been through it is about time to throw in the towel on the rifle and the bullets or something. AFter reading the horror story I don't what to offer except it ain't the caliber.

Good Luck to you.

Yeah its not a very good story is it? I have a savage 12bvss that will shoot steady low twos if the wind ain't bad, I once did 10 groups and it stayed at .240 average. It will dip in the high ones when I do my part. I will say I learned to reload for accuracy and bench shoot for accuracy during this ordeal,as well as headspace my own barrels, so everything works for some good I guess. I just built another savage from scratch, old ram line stock I bedded a package rifle action into, headspaced a savage take-off 22-250 varmint barrel on it, added a timney trigger and good recoil lug, painted it camo and threw on one of my deer rifle scopes as I don't have a varmint scope for it yet. Threw together 4 different powder loads and pulled an OAL out of air, first time out on a new barrel and the 4064 shot two sub 1/2 moa groups right off. That was when it dawned on me.....I now have another gun that shoots good so why not take the parts off the 7mm-08 and try them one at a time on this accurate gun to find the culprit? Last night I put the 7mm-08 barrel on the accurate gun with no other changes. If it shoots tight groups I'll try the action next till I figure it out. I believe its the barrel, actually two in a row but my smith is convinced its the action. We'll see and this long bad trip should soon be over. I will go down on record as saying if its two medicore barrels in a row.....I'm going to switch to a 260 caliber and not look back.Thanks for the help fellas.

woods

At least you are learning a lot a long this rough journey. When thing go really wrong we tend to learn from it.
Good Luck to you.

Can anyone else shoot that batch of bullets accurately?

quote:

Can anyone else shoot that batch of bullets accurately?

Yes we even used some from a box another shooter was shooting quite well with in his rifle.

I think we found the culprit. It wasn't the action or barrel.....and it was the only item never replaced.....I lied.....THE BARREL NUT! When we switched barrels and bore sighted last night the scope was a ton off, that seemed odd so after shooting we checked the barrel nut as it was never trued when the action was. It was way off from square and was torqueing the barrel to one side when tightened. The threads on these actions aren't that tight a fit and when the barrel and barrel nut is floated its just tightness that keeps things from moving. Less than a thousands off would move things 3/4" off after shooting a couple in the same group, than as it would slightly move again under recoil group would move again. The smith is truing it today as it was contacting almost totally on one side and we will soon test the theory, that nut has always stayed with the action so it would explain why its never effected my other guns. The one variable I never thought off.

woods

Glad to read the progress and possible solution to the problem.

Woods ,If that gun was mine ,it would have been gone a long time ago.Back to the 7mm-08 AI.You probably are not going to see much MV increase on a factory barrel rechambered.If you went with a Cut rifled Barrel and had the barrel drilled a few thousands smaller than nominal and went with the Tightest chamber possible,you can get a good boost in MV and accuracy.Krieger,Obermier or Badger barrels can do this for you.This way you can also have the correct depth to lands for the bullet you want to shoot.Just remember to start with a standard 7mm-08 load as your pressures will be higher.Kenny Jarret does this to his Rifles with great success.