Has anyone ever read or heard of what a reloader could make or substitute for gunpowder if he, shall we say, were "in a pinch" (none was available)?

Do you mean other than making blackpowder?

Yes, substitute for propellant in popular modern cartridges from .223 to .458. and 9mm to .44 mag.

Some have shredded film to use.You can
make black substitutes from household chemicals.
You can soak shredded wood fibers in nitrate
solutions.Controlling burn rate is the problem.Ed.

quote:

Originally posted by hubel458:
Some have shredded film to use...Controlling burn rate is the problem.Ed.

Actually, not that big of a problem. Cut up an action movie, say something starring Sly Stallone or Bruce Willis, for a fast burn rate to use in handguns. Use a really slow movie, something starring Jeremy Irons or Ralph Fiennes or other "serious" English actor, for slow burning stuff to use in magnum cartridges.

Just here to help...

Yeah, you can make guncotton out of cotton and nitric acid. If you extrude that into rods, you have cordite.

I've also experimented with a yellow compound provided by a chemist friend. Burn rate and energy yield are in the same ballpark as rifle powders.

The guandine nitrate/basic copper nitrate mixture used in automobile airbags works, but is slower burning than most rifle powders.

quote:

nitric acid

Last I recall, nitric acid is restricted (in the USA)...in the same category as high explosives. One can't just go buy it over the counter...so if gunpowder is unavailable, I suspect nitric acid would be as well.

Shredded film? Modern stuff or the really old types that used to explode peoples safes occasionally?

Doesn't look restricted ... But now I'll be searched when travelling for the next 2 years

One other thing...
How much energy in "typical" smokeless powder? in BTU's per pound. does it beat Gasoline (33,000)

quote:

Originally posted by sonofagun:
Has anyone ever read or heard of what a reloader could make or substitute for gunpowder if he, shall we say, were "in a pinch" (none was available)?

Siberian subsistence hunters in the old Soviet Union were said to use cut off match tips. Don't think you'd want to try that stuff in your typical Westley Richards; maybe that's what they sell all of those old Moisen Nagants for.

you need more than nitric acid to nitrify cellulose. also need sulfuric acid.

cordite also contains nitroglycerine.

old, old movie film may work, but that stuff is hard to find. you will recognize it by the deterioration evident on the exposed areas. anything remotely modern is acetate and does not burn.

there are books on powder substitutes, but they all fall short of the real thing.

you are far better off buying a keg of something very useful and flexible and stashing it. unique for pistols, 3031 or 4895 for rifles.

quote:

you need more than nitric acid to nitrify cellulose. also need sulfuric acid.

cordite also contains nitroglycerine.

Both absolutely correct.

"In a pinch"????? Do I sense Armageddon thinking here? or just simple paranoia???? Think of this way, in the event of a "pinch" would you really want to be the only one on your block advertising your presense???? May I susgest a large store of Unique, a 357 magnum carbiune a bushel basket of 158 grain lead bullets and 50,000 or so primers. Oh, and a method of silencing.

Don't drive anything faster than 900 fps. This is well below SOS and can easily be silenced. Anything faster advertises your presence. Oh, and be sure to not eat too heavily, not good to have a large gut around starving masses. Better yet, move to Alaska or the Northwest Territories, the fewer people around, the better off you'll be.

Even better, lay off the Mad Max movies.

I've asked this question as much as for an academic, educational exercise as anything. However, just what makes you think a Mad Max futuure is impossible - seems the capabilties of mass destruction and the willingness to use it isn't exactly in short supply these days (or what rock have you been hiding under?).

Bows and arrows are pretty quiet, thank you...also slingshots.

Powder has much less energy than Gasoline. About 1/6th, IIRC. 4000KJ/Kg. HTH, Dutch.

How about gasoline packets, kinda like ketchup at Macdonald's?

How about filling case partially or full with sawdust and add measured drops of gasoline, kerosene, naptha, toluene, or some such flammable fluid?

Anybody wanna try it

Maybe you'd get 6000 fps with 1/2 moa accuracy. Wouldn't that be something.

WARNING: IF YOU DO SO, IT WILL BE AT YOUR OWN RISK. I ASSUME NO RESPONSIBILITY. TIE GUN DOWN TO A TREE SOMEWHERE AND GET A LOOONGGG STRING!

You would need an oxidizer...the sealed breech wouldn't have enough stored for much action.

Hydrocarbon and oxidizer mixes are notoriously explosive...think diesel and ammonium nitrate. I can't think of a decent stabilizer for this type of mixture offhand...

The trick is a controlled 'burn' not a kaboom! Plain old black powder is the best choice...can be made at home or in the woods with no 'modern' conveniences/chemicals/processes.

There was a time early in smokeless development when nitro lignen/celluose was used. Basically treat sawdust with nitric and sulfuric acids. Then nuetralize, rinse and dry. Looks like sawdust, behaves like very fast smokeless powder. I believe some of the semi smokeless was done this way. If I remember correctly it was used in shotshells.

All of this is really academic. Please don't try any improvised propellants. You wold probably be better served by stealing a rifle and ammo. In case of confescation wouldn't you expect prosicution for making ammo?

For argument's sake, if we were really living in a post apolyptic world I would be making flintlocks and extracting potassium nitrate from decomposing crap. Yep, that is how they did it. Better yet learn to shoot a bow. That is if I ever run short of the thousand or so pounds of ammo I have. Really if you are wanting to be prepared get a surplus military rifle or two and a couple of cases of surplus ammo. I also think 22 RF ammo would be a comodity of value in a hunter-gather economy. Seems like a bunch of academic talk though. If it ever got that bad we would probably die off from radiation poisoning, biologic attacks, desease, and such. Anythig we would hunt for food would probably have died off too.

...and we'll have fun, fun, fun 'til our Daddy takes our T-birds awayyyyyyyy!!!

quote:

Originally posted by sonofagun:
Has anyone ever read or heard of what a reloader could make or substitute for gunpowder if he, shall we say, were "in a pinch" (none was available)?

NO!! Since one is even required to use extreme caution when using canistered powders, I'd think using something else could be quite dangerous - or ineffective!

quote:

Originally posted by denton:
Yeah, you can make guncotton out of cotton and nitric acid. If you extrude that into rods, you have cordite.

Not exactly! Cordite is plasticized niotrocellulose, plasticized by the addition of 15% to 20% NITROGLYCERINE!! which I would hesitate to recommend anyone make or use!