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One of Us |
I bought an electronic scale. Its a Cabelas brand. I noticed something crazy. It will repeat all day long putting the same wieght on it again and again. If you put a short charge on it and try to trickle up to the right amount its not correct. It varys from a couple of tenths to a whole grain. As soon as you take the charge and container off you can tell because the - wieght will not be right. Anyone else ever seen anything like this? I have walked in the foot prints of the elephant, listened to lion roar and met the buffalo on his turf. I shall never be the same. | ||
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| one of us |
I've had a couple of runs at using electronic scales and have always run into the kind of problem you describe, or something similar. Take it back and exchange it for a balance beam. The electronic scale was invented to solve a problem which did not exist. There is no substitute for the accuracy and utility of a balance beam scale, and I've found even the cheapest of them to be superior in accuracy to electronics costing triple the money. | |||
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| One of Us |
Make sure you zero the scale correctly. Never use the electronic scale near any floresent light. Keep cell phones away. If none of the above is present, take it back to the dealer. | |||
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| One of Us |
When I started reloading, picked up a cheap little electronic scale on sale, and the bare minimum needed to reload a few rounds of 9.3x62. At the time, could,nt find ammo, just wanted to try out a new rifle, kinda got into reloading by default. Same problem, mostly. Tried eliminating all the variables I could. Realized I could not trust the scale, sent it back. Maybe a litte overboard on my part, but my girlfriend shoots the stuff I reload, did,nt want any surprises. Looked at a lot of options between electronic and balance beam scales, spent a lot of time checking out reviews of the prime suspects. Went with an RCBS ChargeMaster 1500, which has,nt given me any trouble yet. One of the factors I looked at for myself, was a slight lack of patience on my part, and my assumption that the balance beam scales would be a little slower than I was willing to deal with.. With handgun and rifle cartridges proabably on the menu, I decided against the balance beam types. Long winded way of saying I needed a scale that I could trust, electronic or balance beam. If the one you have is,nt working right, probably needs to go back to Cabelas.. | |||
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| One of Us |
Thunder Head, I had a Lyman that did the same thing. None of the internet myths on how to fix it worked. It wandered it so bad I quit using it for measuring powder and just used it for sorting brass and such. | |||
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| One of Us |
I have tried one electronic scale & had the same problem. I know that one scale was not very scientific but I already had a balance beam scale & just went back to using it. | |||
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| One of Us |
I have the Lyman electronic scale, been using it about three years. I found you have to follow the directions exactly. (Hard for some of us.) You do have to let warm up for the correct time or it will give you bad readings. I have checked aganist the balance beam scale. The two always match. I like it. | |||
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| One of Us |
YUP Aim for the exit hole | |||
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One of Us |
This has been my experience with the cheap scales you get from Ebay and some of the more expensive ones too. I seem to remember from my days in the lab that a set of electronic scales accurate to +-0.005 grams ( about where you want to be for 0.1 grain resolution ) was an expensive, delicate and sensitive device that had it's own stand and was calibrated by a bloke with a bag of platinum-plated weights every 12 months... Like you say they were reasonably repeatable for weighing discrete masses but useless for trickling, making them also useless for reloading. I don't load cast quantities and so use a beam scale, friends that have the RCBS and Lyman systems report that those two work well and having seen them in action have to agree. The moral of the story seems to be that unless you spend the money to get the proven models, or lab quality stuff, stick to beam scales. | |||
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| One of Us |
I have used the RCBS and the Lyman. I use the RCBS to throw the charge and then I dump it into the RCBS 1010 balance beam scale to verify. I either add or take powder away to make the load right on the mark. The dispenser part is quicker and by the time the next load is dumped, the load on the balance beam is ready to pour into the case. | |||
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One of Us |
From a truely comparative stand point, ammo loaded on my Pact shoots the same scores as ammo loaded by triclking on my RCBS 505. A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. | |||
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One of Us |
FIRST...you have to read the fine print...THEN...you need to understand what the terminology means...Tolerance, readability, accuracy, precision etc.. EVERY electronic scale has a "tipping" factor...a weight/point that will trigger the next measure point. That tipping point may be higher than the precision point of the scale...which is why trickling doesn't always work unless the scale is designed with a low tipping point or designed for registering small changes. ALL electronic scales had different levels of accuracy and precision...1 gram, 0.1gram, 0.01 gram, 0.001 gram and so forth. Then you have to understand and know how to convert grams to grains so you can figure out just what 0.001 gram is in grains. I have 5-6 electronic scales and 2 balance beam scales...one of the electronic scales will measure plus or minus 2 grains which means everytime I weigh a charge it can have a 4 grain variation. The more accurate/precision scales will have a .15 gr or less variation. I have a couple of "jewelery" scales for weighing jems...80 gr max, 0.01g precision...there are 15.43 grains in one gram so the scale will weigh a max of 1234 grains and is accurate to 0.1543 gr...and has a repeatability of 0.1543 gr. Because electronic scales are digital I can only get as close as the 0.01 gr or 0.001 gr increments...the balance beam will get to 0.1 gr but I can also split the two lines...but that get WAY BEYOND anal and is of little value anyway. I use my 80 gr scale to weigh sort bullets and cases because it is fast, as accurate as needs to be and repeatable. All my electronic scale have the required data on the back of the scale or in the instructions. I also have a "diamond" scale that weighs a max of 20 gr and 0.001 gr...308 grains and 0.01543 grains and also measures in ct, Carats...just for fun. If you are interested in learning about scales and the terminology and learn just what is and what isn't...just to cut through the BS... goto http://www.gramscales.com/ everything you need/want to know/learn is on that site including a scale info database, weight converter and so forth. Luck | |||
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one of us |
+1 Except when using a slow burning extruded powder like IMR4831, I have never tricked anything except when working up a load. While I am not a benchrest shooter, I used to weigh every 5th charge, went to every 10th and now weigh at the beginning of a run and at the end. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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| One of Us |
I have a beam scale and find it to be cumbersome. I thought a digital might speed me up. The first clue i had was that when trickeling it would change by .2 grains at the time and i can live with that as i am not benchrest shooting. But sometimes by the time you get it to register the desired number it as much as 1 grain to heavy. If most digitals are not any better than this i definatly need to go back to the balance beam. I have walked in the foot prints of the elephant, listened to lion roar and met the buffalo on his turf. I shall never be the same. | |||
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| One of Us |
Why enter another variable into the loading?, A beam scale (all solid state) is just as fast and you can see it work. | |||
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| One of Us |
My Pact is always within .1 gr. of my balance beam and it is pretty consistent. Trickling is not really accurate with mine - it seems to try to readjust to zero or the starting weight if weight is added in very small increments. I trickle into my balance beam pan. If I weigh the whole charge on the electronic after it has been adjusted upward, it is accurate. | |||
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| One of Us |
Get a Belding & Mull powder measure and there is no need to trickle. | |||
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| One of Us |
I have never tried to use a cheap scale of any kind, but I imagine you get what you pay for in digital scales as in anything else--also as someone noted you need to read the instructions and follow them. I also have a PACT- both that they make, in fact. One was a gift and came with the dispenser. Neither one has done anything but work flawlessly for me and much quicker than my old balance beam. I cannot see why a trickler would confuse a properly working properly used digital scale since my PACT dispenser is really just a jumped up trickler, and works just great. On the 6mmbr.com website in the tech articles there are a couple of interesting essays concerning digital scales. One about how to keep interference from causing problems and one about a line filter that will clean up the power getting to the scale. I can tell you that the line filter does work. I bought an electronic dehumidifier for my gun room and it was driving my PACT scale/dispenser crazy. I laid a very strong magnet lengthwise on my power cord about 4 inches from the scale and hey! presto! all back to normal. My bench also has an anti-static mat on the work surface, something we all should have. They are available from several sources online and are not all that expensive. If the enemy is in range, so are you. - Infantry manual | |||
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One of Us |
I've been using a Chargemaster 1500 for a few years now with zero problems. It's easy to startup and measures loads quickly and accurately. I've verified loads periodically with a balance beam and they always read the same. Just my 2 cents from my limited experience. Ken.... "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so. " - Ronald Reagan | |||
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I have been using an RCBS powder pro for a long time.I let it warm up for 30 minutes,calibrate it.I always compare with my RCBS 505 beam scale just for my own satisfaction.So far has always measured the same. | |||
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One of Us |
I have been using a Lyman for a year. Static will reek havoc on your load. Wash the tube wipe dry with dryer sheet and you'll be surprized what happens 1 shot 1 thrill | |||
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| One of Us |
All electronic instuments have a reluctance to change states, it's called 'hysterisis', and the cheaper the instrument the more likely the relutance to change will be appearant to the user. That's just ONE of the many reasons no digital powder scale is on my loading bench! ALL reloading branded scales are cheap throw-aways. Meaning they're not worth the time/cost to repair so most that get returned under warrantee are just replaced. I used to work in a precision instrument calibration lab and know the limitations of electronics: I find it amusing how often I read that digital scale owners keep a beam scale nearby to insure their modern wonder digital gimmick is working well enough to use! High quality digital scales start around a thousand bucks and go up from there. They need routine scheduled professional maintainance to insure continued proper operation. | |||
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| One of Us |
Let's not forget that this also applies to mechanical systems. Generally however, a mechanical system has no way to take this into account. As it applies to electronics, it is the reason feedback loops were designed many decades ago. The loop insures the state of a the system is known which in turn allows the electronics to know when that state has changed. Properly programmed, it's state change history will be taken into account as well. In other words, the circuit's "personality" is also taken into consideration. In this day and age of electronics, producing a reasonably inexpensive and consistent electronic scale is a breeze. In the case of a digital scale being accurate enough for reloading we're talking about measuring to within 6 one thousandths of a gram, not 1 ten thousandth like the 1000 plus dollar lab units. Simply put, a properly calibrated digital scale is easily as accurate as a properly calibrated mechanical scale. Ken.... "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so. " - Ronald Reagan | |||
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| One of Us |
Well, all you electronic gurus sound really impressive with your talk of hysteria and all that. Seems that one of Mr Newton's laws would apply regardless of whether you're using a electronic scale or a balance beam. Y'all can parse around that for a few (dozen) pages. All dumbass me knows is that I have had a Lyman for around 10 years and if I let it warm up and correctly calibrate it, it STILL weighs exactly what my Ohaus 10/10 weighs. I've proofed it too many times to doubt that. It never ceases to amaze me the extent to which folks will go to trash something. Aim for the exit hole | |||
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| One of Us |
Hmm... Check weights? Kinda handy to confirm or deny the veracity of the scale being used.. Or do we realy need to have our roadies do everything for us?.. | |||
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| One of Us |
While the Ohaus and the Lyman came with a check weight there ain't nothin' wrong with using some of the match bullets from one or another company. As is apparent, we can over think this stuff.  Aim for the exit hole | |||
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| One of Us |
You can weight bullets and brass all day long with great satisfaction with many electronic scales. I use electronic scales often for this purpose but never for trickling power charges. The transducers on many cheaper scales do not function well when tiny increments of weight are made such as trickling. You might trickle a half grain of powder or more before the scale responds. You weigh a charge of powder thrown from a measure with a high degree of confidence but when you start trickling it up to a specific weight the scale may not respond correctly or consistently. The same scale can be checked with calibration or check weights until hell freezes over and give good calibration reading. Just don't trickle loads with out picking them up and setting them back down on the scale to double check. | |||
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| One of Us |
SR 4759, that was something I noticed with the first electronic scale I bought. One kernel of powder trickled directly to the pan on the scale would have the shown weight jumping around a lot. Had to take it off the scale, add a little, try again. A lot of times, just did,nt jive with the one or two kernels added. Cheapest electronic scale I could find. After a while I gave up on it, seemed no matter how carefull you were with it, never could trust it to be consistent, had to re-zero it constantly. Had,nt thought about it before, but I still mostly avoid trickling up to a weight with the pan on the scale. Conditioned responce. When I do trickle a charge, keep the trickler spout as close to the height of the pan as I can, drop in one kernel at a time. Same scale as used in the RCBS chargemaster combo, which near as I can tell, basically trickles the charge up to weight. So in theory, Should be okay for trickling a charge . In practice, most of the time if the charge is light or heavy,just as as easy to dump it back in the jug, throw another charge.. | |||
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One of Us |
I agree wholeheartedly. I too use a jeweler's scale and a set of tweezers for my final charge. I use either an RCBS tricker-scale combo or Harrel's thrower with a short throw and then top 'em off in my Tanita scale. Anal- yes. Unnecessary- maybe, but it does take the 90% between the ears out of the picture. Bottom line is for precision "You get what you pay for"..................... There are two types of people in the world: those that get things done and those who make excuses. There are no others. | |||
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