I have some interest in the 300 Gibbs. Looking for current reloading,using todays available powder and the methods used to form the case. Thanks.

Whops, too many zeros, make that 30 Gibbs

Now that you know what cartridge you are interested in, try http://stevespages.com/page8c.htm

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http://stevespages.com/page8.htm

To form the case either use a COW method, neck the neck up to to say 35 cal and then form a false shoulder or the old failsafe of sticking the bullet hard into the lands to head space.
150 gr 59 4320 @ 3261
165 gr 65 4350 @ 3115
180 gr 64 4359 @ 3115
66 Imr 4831
200 gr 61 4350 @ 2871
YOu might consider using 270 or 280 brass so you can trim the neck to length.

Per ramrod340's suggestion, instead of necking cases up to .35, then back down, start with .35 Whelen or .338/'06 brass, and just neck it down to .30 gradually until you can just barely force the bolt closed on an empty case. This will ensure safe headspacing for your fireforming loads.

The .30 Gibbs is too much trouble and all of the history of the Gibbs line is clouded by hype and misinformation.

You will end up with a rifle that you cannot sell for some tiny gain and spend a lot of time doing your own load development and pressure testing.

Just use the regular 30/06 as is. It will take just about anything. If you want a lot more velocity than the 06 case will give then consider one of the .300 "magnums"

Boy, you sure do know how to rain on a parade, Don.

I have a 6.5 Gibbs and love it. Sure its a little extra work forming cases once in a while, but it really ain't that big a deal. Some of us actually enjoy fireforming etc, and all the other things that go along with a true wildcat. And there is some limited published data out there that you can use to get started. (Gibbs' Cartridges and Front Ignition Loading Technique, Wolfe Publishing, 1991, ISBN 0-935632-99-9). Since pressure varies so much by firearm I haven't found that I needed to do anymore pressure testing with my Gibbs than any of my factory cartridges.

And beside, everybody and their dog doesn't have one.

Steven, If you want to get into the fun and fiddling that comes with a wildcat, you could do a lot worse than a 30 Gibbs. I say go for it. Let us know. I am sure there are a few guys here that can share their data.

Canuck

Wow, I think I made my point!

Don G, if you see this, can you delete those superfluous posts. To be more accurate, I mean all but one of them.

I kept getting an error message everytime I posted it, but apparently it worked anyway.

Canuck

I'm shooting a custom Mauser chambered in .30 Gibbs. I'm still doing load development and working on getting loads together with modern powders. All of the data I have seen is very old. So far, accuracy is great. Velocity is running right with my 30-06AI (165gr bullets @ 3000fps) and I am getting no pressure signs at all. I have another set of loads ready to go in my search to find the maximum charge. It appears that unless I hit max right away, the next batch will get over 3100fps with 165's. After I get done with those I'll be working with 180's. Average velocity increases with 165's have been about 50 to 70fps with each grain increase in the powder charge.

So far I have been shooting RL-22 and H4831SC. Now I am up to 63gr and have a batch loaded up to 66gr in my search to find the max load. I started way low so I wouldn't blow myself up!! Starting velocities were only 2500fps and I went up from there.

I form my cases (Federal Gold Match) by necking them up to .338 then back to .308 in a 30-06 die until they chamber slightly snug.

The members here know a lot more about the .30 Gibbs than Rocky did himself. At the time Rocky Gibb's was promoting his line it was the subject of derision by those who looked at it. In particular Gibbs claimed very high velocities with no chorongraph.

I remember that he made cartridges cases with a hydraulic press.

Right now I am making a new lot of cases for the .224 wildcat I designed in 1987. It requires two form dies, a trim die that is also the third form and then a reaming die. The reamer that RCBS supplied broke as the leade was wrong so my late dad made a better one. I ream the necks with a electric drill to power the reamer as there is quite a bit of metal to remove. Then I trim them to the final length and full length size them.

So far I have five new cases made. This got old about ten years ago and I am thinking of having the M-70's orginal barrel put back on.

If I was after a little more power than a 30/06 I would buy a ready made standard cartridge that is larger.

Been there, doing that!

Per Don Martin: "The .30 Gibbs is too much trouble and all of the history of the Gibbs line is clouded by hype and misinformation". I must agree with Don M. concerning the hype and misinformation surrounding Gibbs' stuff. It may also be true that the .30 Gibbs is not enough of an improvement over the .30/'06 to bother with. But, the same thing can be said about most all wildcats. That said, the Gibbs cartridges do offer some increase in power over "standard" cases of the same caliber. I have had some experience with Gibbs cartridges, and my opinion is that more ink has been used maligning them than promoting them! Some of this may be due to Rocky Gibbs' attempt to maintain an aura of secrecy surrounding his cartridges. I also note that there are some contemporary folks "reinventing" the Gibbs approach, ie., moving the shoulder forward, blowing out to minimum taper, and sharpening the shoulder. (Some of these people are even acting like their rounds are something new!!!) Some of these "new" cartridges are even being chambered in single-shot pistols, and some have an even steeper shoulder angles than the Gibbs line!! I say, don't fool with the Gibbs cartridges unless you like to fool around making cases, and otherwise experiment. If you enjoy this kind of stuff, then these are as good as any to play with. I also agree with Don M., that you'll never get back the money you poop off, because no-one really wants to buy someone else's wildcat rifle!! But it's fun!!

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Larry

Per Don Martin: "The .30 Gibbs is too much trouble and all of the history of the Gibbs line is clouded by hype and misinformation". I must agree with Don M. concerning the hype and misinformation surrounding Gibbs' stuff. It may also be true that the .30 Gibbs is not enough of an improvement over the .30/'06 to bother with. But, the same thing can be said about most all wildcats. That said, the Gibbs cartridges do offer some increase in power over "standard" cases of the same caliber. I have had some experience with Gibbs cartridges, and my opinion is that more ink has been used maligning them than promoting them! Some of this may be due to Rocky Gibbs' attempt to maintain an aura of secrecy surrounding his cartridges. I also note that there are some contemporary folks "reinventing" the Gibbs approach, ie., moving the shoulder forward, blowing out to minimum taper, and sharpening the shoulder. (Some of these people are even acting like their rounds are something new!!!) Some of these "new" cartridges are even being chambered in single-shot pistols, and some have an even steeper shoulder angles than the Gibbs line!! I say, don't fool with the Gibbs cartridges unless you like to fool around making cases, and otherwise experiment. If you enjoy this kind of stuff, then these are as good as any to play with. I also agree with Don M., that you'll never get back the money you poop off, because no-one really wants to buy someone else's wildcat rifle!! But it's fun!!

Can one of you Gibbs shooters spare a fireformed case for a cartridge collector? I'll pay the shipping! I think the Gibbs rounds, all calibers, are very interesting and a great idea. It's too bad they aren't more popular.
Thanks,
Elk Country

[This message has been edited by Elk Country (edited 05-14-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Elk Country (edited 05-16-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Elk Country (edited 05-16-2002).]

I agree if all you are looking for is power, don't care about the amount of powder you burn then get a big "Magnum" and get it over with.

I built my first wildcat in 1981. I was wanting to try a wildcat and to be different
Using Sundra's & Ackley's work as a foundation I looked at the 280. If you plot velocity per case capacity you get two lines one for the normal cases and one for the magnums. I figured that if you could hit the intersection then you would have the highest efficiency. So I took the 280 case. set the neck to .28 40 deg shoulder minimum body taper. I have since used that case for everything from 243 to 416. Ten years later I happened to stumble on Gibbs data. Well I had done an excellent job of reinventing the wheel. All I had was a Gibbs with a .28 neck vs .25 and a 40 vs 35 deg shoulder. If you consider he would measure his barrel length from the front of the bullet instead of the bolt his velocities are in line.

Forming brass for it is no harder than any other wildcat. It just isn't an "improved" case so you can't simply fire factory. If you want a wildcat to try and talk about around the camp fire. the Gibbs line is as good as any. However if you are after pure speed, total powder will almost alway beat efficent.

Yes, the Gibbs cartridges do pretty much perform the way Rocky claimed, and even more so with some of our modern powders like MRP, Re 22, etc.!!! There's really nothing much new in this field!!

I stand on the point that the Rocky Gibbs cartridges were hyped with unsubstantiated velocities. Of course any case can be blown out and stuffed with slow burning powder and a higher velocity can be reached.

Here are the .30 Gibbs loads from Ackleys Suppliment for Reloaders: 150gr #4064 3450 fps, 180 gr #4350 3137 fps and the 220 gr #4831 at 2700 fps. I did not list the grains of powder unless somebody try it! But the velocities and loads exceed that for the .300 WSM today!!!!!!!!!!

As I said Rocky Gibbs made up the velocities and had no pressure testing data either. This is not to say that those who loaded his cartridges in a reasonable way did not really enjoy good performance.

If you search at www.boardreader.com or at www.huntchat.com you will find a thread there on the Gibbs line and someone with a lot of data on the cartridges. They seemed to really like the Gibbs cartridges.

I have a 30/06 Improved. That's a lot easier and less trouble. If a more powerful cartridge was needed I think the .300 SAUM or .300 WSM would make a lot more sense. Even the .300 Win Mag would be less trouble and with any larger cartridge the pressures could be kept normal and many rifles shoot better with normal pressures and some say the barrels last longer.

Elk Country,

I don't have a Gibbs case handy however if you collect strange cases I can give you a 280 and 340 case of mine. To the naked eye you couldn't tell them from a Gibbs. Neck is .28 instead of .25 and 40 deg vs 35.

Ramrod,
I would be interested in a few of your cases.
let me know what they are and what you need for them. I also sent you an email!
Later,
Elk Country

Don Martin29, I just don't remember the velocity figures Gibbs himself claimed. Are they the ones you quote from Ackley? I seem to recall that Ackley didn't test any Gibbs data himself, he just quoted what Gibbs told him?? I don't set much store by Gibbs claims, but I am pretty confident that the figures Stowers published in his little book on the Gibbs line are actual velocities that he got using McGowan 26" barrels. Some of these are pretty impresive, especially in the .30, 8mm, and .338" Gibbs. As I said previously, I am not sure just what the limit on "improvement" is with the '06 case. But, I believe all will agree that an increase in case capacity generally, (maybe not always), will produce a SOME increase in muzzle velocities, provided the right powder is used for the bore capacity and bullet weight.

eldequello,

The data I posted is from Ackleys book. There is a extensive article on the .30 Gibbs by Bob Hagel in the book "Wildcat Cartridges". Hagel sums it up as follows:

"To sum up the performance of the .30 Gibbs cartridge, it will produce 50 fps more velocity thatn the 30/06 with the same barrel length when both are loaded to appoximately the same pressure levels."

Of course there is plenty of room to improve the 30/06 case and they all will work. All I am doing is debating. In something like this there is more than one right answer.

I am pointing out the path of least resistance. Back when Rocky Gibbs was making a living doing this there was just the .30 Newton and the .300 H&H so he had a market.

It's really too bad that the .30 Newton did not catch on. We would have been 80 years ahead.

Don, thanks for the info. I had never heard Bob Hagel's comments on the .30 Gibbs, but I certainly respect his opinions. One of the things I always liked about Hagel is he always gave "the reason for this is" when he said something. It was not just an unsupported opinion, he explained why something was a certain way. I also agree with you about the .30 Newton, and almost all of Newton's cartridge designs, as well. They were all ahead of their time, by at least 75 years, except the .22 Savage HP, which I understand he tried to talk Savage out of producing because of it's inferior shape...Why did it take us so long to realize that a beltless case is better than a belted one? I guess the Germans figured this out before we did, as exemplified by the 6.5 X 68 and 8 X 68S!