Years ago I worked up a load that shot ½” at 100 yards and 1.5” at 300 in a factory MK V .300 Wby. I was thrilled with that load and shot many tiny groups with it. So I loaded a hundred or so of them with components from the same lots. Not that it matters, but it was Wby brass, a Hornady bullet and one of the common powders (I don’t recall which powder or primer).

But after storing those loads in a cool dry place for 10 or 15 years I couldn’t get them to group well enough to even tell if the gun was sighted in. Since the loads shot so well originally I assumed the problem was anything but the ammo - trying different scopes, checking the bedding, trying different cleaning procedures, etc. In my frustration I put the gun in the safe for years and didn’t dig it out until more recently to try again. After more testing I realized that the rifle and scope were fine - it shoots other ammo great. It turned out those loads that originally shot so well were the only problem.

A few people suggested that maybe the neck tension on the loads changed so much that the accuracy was drastically affected. I guess it’s possible I left a bit of lube in the neck or had an inconsistent crimp. Maybe it could have been a fluke that the powder broke down or something else really unusual.

At any rate it’s made me a bit shy about loading up too much of a supply of any one load. Ideally I’d like to have a bunch of shells loaded for each gun so I can just grab a box and go when I want to dig out a different gun, but I’m concerned that if they’re stored too long they may not be reliably accurate.

I know everyone has a story about having good results with their dad’s reloads from 50 years ago and some of my own loads from when I was a kid still shoot well, but has anyone else had issues now and then with reloads that are just 10 or 15 years old?

Thanks,
Kyler

I never worried about it. Old military match shooters used to slightly Un-seat their bullets (inward I mean) to make sure the bullets had not attached themselves to the brass, but this was with tin plated bullets or some such thing. You might try that. Unlikely it was powder. Brass can weaken over time too so bullet pull might be the culprit. I am just guessing you understand.

I have never really tested it but have encountered a similar situation. Reloads that seemed to work great years ago and when I pull them out now don't seem as accurate.
Since the powder and primers wouldn't deteriorate in a loaded cartridge, the likely culprit would be the brass either sticking to the bullets or losing neck tension.
I have pulled out old loads and found a number of neck splits that were not there when they were put away.
Maybe you could partially pull the bullets and reseat them to the original COL and see if that fixes it.

How many rounds through the barrel in 10 to 15 years

or maybe the shooters eyes are getting older

Having played merry-go-round lately to get brass for shooting/retrieve powders to use elsewhere, the following:

powders can "clump" over time which would alter ignition significantly
bullets can stick to the sides of reloaded brass
your barrel might be in the middle of wearing out, depending on known history of number of rounds

2 cents

Thanks for the advice.

p dog & B Nagel: I should have included the number of rounds during the period, but it's a hunting gun (and just used "on and off") so the round count was quite low. In the period from when the loads were developed to when I had some much trouble with them it couldn't have seen more than 20 to 40 rounds.

Butch: No question my eyes are going... but the gun is shooting little groups now and I was shooting groups I was happy with using other guns at the same period that these loads were shooting huge groups so I'm assuming it wasn't the nut behind the stock in this case.

Unfortunately I don't have any more of those rounds so I can't try pulling them apart or experiment with them further.

In general, I think I'll be more careful to be sure my brass is good and clean before loading. I might not have been as careful as I could have been about that during that period. It's possible there was some dried lube or soot in those cases before I loaded them. I've also switched to Lee Factory Crimp dies since then so that probably can't hurt if it was a neck tension issue. And these days I'm loading mostly TSX or TTSX rifle bullets so those groves might not allow as much bonding of the brass with the bullet if that was a contributing factor.

Good man.

Cold or contact welding

Cold welding of similar metals (bullet & case) may be a problem if all lube is removed from the neck area? Should not be a problem if shooting the reloads in a day or two. Long term storage may be a different story? Avoid cleaning brass with ammonia or vinegar products. Do clean with citric acid

Over the years, I have, from time to time, pulled some of my bullets to either alter the powder charge or use a different bullet. When going this process I found that more than a few of these bullets were literally "glued" to the neck. So much so that it took very excessive effort to pull with the RCBS collet type puller.
I have always been amazed that so many reloaders are so anal about neck tension yet not once have I ever read where anyone bothered to brush or clean the case mouth/neck on the inside to remove any lube or powder residue or chemical after resizing.
I have often wondered what effects some of the chemical case cleaners have on this phenomena.
Not sure about citric acid either.

I didn't take the time to read all of the previous post on this thread so someone may have eluded to this already.

I loaded some 270Win ammo with a compressed charge of H1000 that shot bug holes in early October and shot them again in February and the group opened up to about 4.5". I then pulled some bullets and the powder had clumped so bad I had to break it up with a pick to get it out of the cases.

I have had compressed H-414 loads clump up after some years storage. Uncompressed loads of same, no problem.

quote:

Originally posted by Luckyducker:
I loaded some 270Win ammo with a compressed charge of H1000 that shot bug holes in early October and shot them again in February and the group opened up to about 4.5". I then pulled some bullets and the powder had clumped so bad I had to break it up with a pick to get it out of the cases.

Your powder started clumping the second you pushed a bullet down on a compressed load don't you think?

Compressed loads have given me fits so I don't...with todays powders you can find a good load WITHOUT compressing for the most part.

I also DON'T keep reloaded ammo more than about two years...I don't shoot much factory ammo and don't worry about it for at least 5 years then it gets shot up and replaced. I date the boxes and usually shoot up any leftovers at the end of the year when I clean all my shooters.

Basically hard lessons learned the hard way.

I keep a supply of unprimed prepped brass for all the shooters ready to load at a moments notice with all the other components getting cycled/used up/replaced continually.

It works for me, might/might not work for others.

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:

quote:

Originally posted by Luckyducker:
I loaded some 270Win ammo with a compressed charge of H1000 that shot bug holes in early October and shot them again in February and the group opened up to about 4.5". I then pulled some bullets and the powder had clumped so bad I had to break it up with a pick to get it out of the cases.

Your powder started clumping the second you pushed a bullet down on a compressed load don't you think?

R59, yeah it probably started very quickly but I shot them the next day after loading and was pumped by how well they shot. Took this load on an antlerless whitetail hunt in Jan. (3mo. later) and I didn't miss the deer but had a feeling they weren't shooting as well and......you know the ROTS.

quote:

Your powder started clumping the second you pushed a bullet down on a compressed load don't you think?

I don't think so in my case. I think it took time and heat to clump in so it had to be picked out. I too experienced poor performance on the old loads that shot fine when new. I don't compress Ball powder any more to avoid the potential problem.

I encountered the exact same problem with my 375 Weatherby years ago, had the rifle and ammo stored for sometime, when I went back to it it wouldn't group at all, went from less than MoA to over 4MoA.
I tried to pull a few bullets and it was very difficult to do so, I only pulled a few and found that the powder was also practically solid which didn't bother me too much.
As it ended up, the few that I pulled went back to shooting sub MoA while the other few that I hadn't touched shot to over 4MoA, in the end I pulled and reseated the rest and they shot as expected, the powder clumping made no difference.
I think that this boils down to cold welding of the bullet to the case neck that causes errattic start pressure which is detrimental to good accuracy, just my educated theory.

Cheers.

quote:

Originally posted by 416RigbyHunter:
I encountered the exact same problem with my 375 Weatherby years ago, had the rifle and ammo stored for sometime, when I went back to it it wouldn't group at all, went from less than MoA to over 4MoA.
I tried to pull a few bullets and it was very difficult to do so, I only pulled a few and found that the powder was also practically solid which didn't bother me too much.
As it ended up, the few that I pulled went back to shooting sub MoA while the other few that I hadn't touched shot to over 4MoA, in the end I pulled and reseated the rest and they shot as expected, the powder clumping made no difference.
I think that this boils down to cold welding of the bullet to the case neck that causes errattic start pressure which is detrimental to good accuracy, just my educated theory.

Cheers.

Possibly the problem is caused by either case welding or compressed loads. The loads I experienced problems with were not compressed and the powder (IMR4320) was not clumped on the loads I pulled.

I am reaching this conclusion based on my target shooting experience. I think the primary issue is powder deterioration. Gunpowder is deteriorating the day it leaves the factory, basically it is kinetics, but even a simpler way to understand it, is that gunpowder is not immune to the second law of thermodynamics. Gunpowder is a high energy compound that is breaking down to a low energy compound. This of course is contrary to the expectations of reloaders/shooters who earnestly desire that their gunpowder, loaded or otherwise, will last to infinity and beyond.

As gunpowder breaks down one of the byproducts released in the process is nitric acid gas. Stabilizers are in the gunpowder to absorb this stuff, but stabilizers are sacrificial, and there are not enough stabilizers in the mix to ensure that all nitric acid gas is captured, and captured forever.

Hence my experience with target ammunition loaded for a couple of years where I am having cracked case necks on firing. My recollection is first of March, 12 cracked casenecks out of 22 rounds fired slow fire prone. The powder that is causing this cracking smells good in the jug, but the increasing number of cracked case necks from this ammunition leads me to conclude that the problem is nitric acid gas release from the powder. When I first loaded this ammunition I was shooting 197's + at 600 yards, last I fired the stuff at mid range, groups were large and point of impact unpredictable.

I have wondered if case necks get tired over time, but I think the primary problem is powder deterioration. Cold welding could be an aggravation and if the bullets are cold welding to the case neck, this is a bore obstruction.

Cold welding of tin coated bullets to case necks was the true reason rifles blew up at the 1921 National Matches. It had nothing to do with greased bullets, but since shooters were fore warned that the tin bullets actually metal fouled worse than the cupro-nickle bullets, you can be sure that anyone who wanted to win, was greasing their bullets. As they had been doing for over a decade without any ill effects. The only ill effects of shooting ammunition in the period 03's happened to be because of the 1 million defective single heat treat receivers the Army made. The shooting community was unaware that the Army built any defective rifles as the Army was not telling anyone. Instead, when a low number blew up, the Army claimed it was due to greased bullets. The Army came up with a canard that grease/oil increased bolt thrust and this was dangerous.

Well this is certainly true for low number 03's. A properly designed rifle will carry the full load of the cartridge for its entire service life. A negligently designed rifle will fail at less than the full load and a negligently manufactured rifle will also fail at less than the full load. So, when you get to 1921, the Army has this history of blown up 03's, which it has been blaming on greased bullets (among other things) and then the Army issues tin can bullets, which blows up rifles because of cold welding between the case and bullet. This is also blamed on greased bullets.

Incidentally the Army issued in print a statement that the tin can ammunition was perfectly safe.

1 Oct 1921 Arms and the Man, Editorial by Brig-Gen Fred H. Phillips, Jr, Secretary NRA

The National Match Ammunition

quote:

Use of the national Match ammunition through the Camp Perry shooting season has amply demonstrated that, in the hands of intelligent rifleman, the “tin can” cartridge may be regarded as absolutely safe

This is a very helpful discussion.

I’ve always wanted to be more organized and keep a good supply of ammo loaded for various calibers, but I don’t ever seem to get that done. With the reports of similar circumstances to mine with that one load, maybe it’s good I haven’t gotten around to reloading lots of ammo ahead.

From the various accounts above it sounds like most people have narrowed down the cause of the reduction in accuracy over time to neck tension issues and/or problems associated with compressed powder.

Please pardon my use of the “f-word”… but it seems like quality Factory ammo will remain accurate for many years. Does anyone know if there is some trick the factory ammo loaders are using to retain accuracy of their loads longer? Very clean case necks and bullets? Some sort of coating (wax, clear lacquer, sealant, etc.) to avoid “cold welding” of the bullet to the neck? Do they generally avoid compressed powder charges?

Reading the above accounts makes me think of a couple exceptions in my older reloads:
1. I still have some .223 rounds that were part of a large batch of ammo I loaded for a prairie dog trip about 18 years ago. When I shoot them these days roughly 30% of them split the necks (lengthwise) so they may have some neck tension problems… but they still shoot the tiny groups that they shot when they were first loaded. As I recall they were a compressed charge as well. Go figure?
2. I also have some .38 Special 148 gr. HBWC ammo that I loaded with Bullseye some 15 to 20 years ago. Of course the charge isn’t compressed, but that bullet has an awful lot of contact area with the case and these loads still shoot ragged holes at 25 yards if I do my part.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Kyler

This is just a guess but I would say the use of factory ball powders that are NOT compressed are why factory ammo remain good for so long.
At least in these modern times.
I would suppose someone will come along and say that the old Cordite loads or M-1 loads from WWII still shoot good but I honestly couldn't say since I have never cared to fire off any of that stuff..